Units erroneously attacking

The bug is sadly not easy to fix, so I cannot give any ETA.

Until further notice this means that the behaviour is now that units only defend without attacking when being stationary in own province centers. Please plan strategies accordingly.

Wow, that's very sad news indeed! How was it possible that it worked correctly for so many years, then?

That was more like a bug of its own. There is actually a part in the code that specifically says that units only defend without attacking while being a province garrison. It was that way in the beginning of CoW if I remember correctly. But then it got changed some years ago to the status quo that units also dont attack when stationed on roads. That was some side-effect of another change, but it was accepted and embraced as the expected behaviour.

We found out that this happened due to a separate part in the code that made the default fire control behaviour of all units to be "hold fire". But for some reason ranged units were not affected and continued to attack automatically, which is of course desired. This default fire behaviour code got changed again when we tweaked AI some months ago, which also touched parts of the fire control code, that likely resulted in what we are seeing now with units fighting back on roads.

First we tried fixing it by giving units the hold fire control again by default but that resulted also in artilleries etc. not attacking anymore. Cos it was already too close to the next release it was deemed too risky to temper more with the code, because many changes have unwanted side effects and may introduce more bugs.

Now we are basically in a state where we have to investigate further why the previous behaviour actually worked, and to potentially implement a clean solution that is not just some workaround or side-effect of another change. That is, once Backend Devs have more time to look deeper into it. I cannot tell how fast that can happen or if their findings will be satisfactory, that's why I rather say that until further notice the default behaviour is now that units only defend without attacking when stationed in own province centers.

Thanks for that detailed explanation, Freezy! I just hope that this one doesn't get buried on some low-priority bug list that basically only gets worked on when Easter and Pentecost are in the same weekend... the game really, really was more fun when this worked correctly, and I know there are many gamers out there who feel the same way!

Great explanation, I also really appreciate you taking the time to walk through it. I'll have to adjust my primary strategy for dealing with AI opponents in the meantime. Hopefully you all are able to find a fix soon!

freezy wrote:

That was more like a bug of its own. There is actually a part in the code that specifically says that units only defend without attacking while being a province garrison. It was that way in the beginning of CoW if I remember correctly. But then it got changed some years ago to the status quo that units also dont attack when stationed on roads. That was some side-effect of another change, but it was accepted and embraced as the expected behaviour.

We found out that this happened due to a separate part in the code that made the default fire control behaviour of all units to be "hold fire". But for some reason ranged units were not affected and continued to attack automatically, which is of course desired. This default fire behaviour code got changed again when we tweaked AI some months ago, which also touched parts of the fire control code, that likely resulted in what we are seeing now with units fighting back on roads.

First we tried fixing it by giving units the hold fire control again by default but that resulted also in artilleries etc. not attacking anymore. Cos it was already too close to the next release it was deemed too risky to temper more with the code, because many changes have unwanted side effects and may introduce more bugs.

Now we are basically in a state where we have to investigate further why the previous behaviour actually worked, and to potentially implement a clean solution that is not just some workaround or side-effect of another change. That is, once Backend Devs have more time to look deeper into it. I cannot tell how fast that can happen or if their findings will be satisfactory, that's why I rather say that until further notice the default behaviour is now that units only defend without attacking when stationed in own province centers.

6thDragon wrote:

He's a thought @Freezy. Would it be worth temporarily undoing the AI fire control change for arty? I think the change from a few months ago moved them to offensive fire control. While I'm all for attempting to make the AI more challenging. This is interfering with player v player actions, which is what I believe most play the game for. Making the AI more challenging shouldn't take priority over the PvP functionality. Then once a fix is tested, it could be implemented without interfering with the way things have been.

I want to gather your opinions: As you may know currently, since ~3 months due to a side-effect / bug, armies idling on roads between provinces automatically attack back when being attacked. This means that armies on roads always fight each other, dealing both attack & defensive ticks to eachother.

There is currently an idea discussed among devs how to improve it: We could change it in a way that an army automatically decides if it fights back or only defends based on its offensive and defensive stats. If an army is better in attacking, it would automatically fight back when being attacked. If an army is better in defending, it would only defend without attacking back.

There are of course pros and cons to this, but I want to ask you to think about it and tell me if you prefer this solution over the current status-quo or not. Thanks!

My first instinct is no; the decision whether to attack back vs defend only also depends on the stats of my opponent's stack (like if my opponent attacks me with infantry and ACs while I have a balanced stack that is barely stronger in attacking vs defending, I'd still rather they defend only because I don't want to engage my opponent's strong defensive stats). If your proposed calculation also factors in the opponent's stats to calculate an optimal scenario for that specific battle I'd be more open to it, but I still think I'd vote no.

Maybe unlock just two levels of fire control for non-premium, so the default Fire-At-Will is attack back while users can choose Hold Fire if they don't want that for a specific stack.

It would certainly be an improvement over the current situation which is just plain bad.

The suggestion also leaves open the option to manually attack back, even if you wouldn't based on this auto-decision? I'm assuming yes.

This would work like this on both province centers (which currently work "correct") and roads, right?

I'm slightly in favor of leaving the decision with the player. After all he consciously stood still, and this only makes a difference when he's offline and can't make the decision himself. When you're online, I'd prefer the player choice (there are use cases of not wanting to attack back); for offline situations it might be useful though.

I suppose it also applies to AI. I think players would also find tactics to (ab)use this, potentially doubling the speed of conquering them. Infantry attacks (early game!) in particular would gain an edge, and early expanders would benefit.

Maybe it would be possible to let this depend on the relative power of the stacks? Only attack back when the potential power of that counterattack is higher than the defensive valye of the (initial) attacker?

I think the option to attack back should be made by the player. If advantageous, they can make that decision if they are active. Being active has it's advantages and I'd prefer this remain one of them.

freezy wrote:

I want to gather your opinions: As you may know currently, since ~3 months due to a side-effect / bug, armies idling on roads between provinces automatically attack back when being attacked. This means that armies on roads always fight each other, dealing both attack & defensive ticks to eachother.

There is currently an idea discussed among devs how to improve it: We could change it in a way that an army automatically decides if it fights back or only defends based on its offensive and defensive stats. If an army is better in attacking, it would automatically fight back when being attacked. If an army is better in defending, it would only defend without attacking back.

There are of course pros and cons to this, but I want to ask you to think about it and tell me if you prefer this solution over the current status-quo or not. Thanks!

laaaaaaaaga wrote:

freezy wrote:

I want to gather your opinions: As you may know currently, since ~3 months due to a side-effect / bug, armies idling on roads between provinces automatically attack back when being attacked. This means that armies on roads always fight each other, dealing both attack & defensive ticks to eachother.

There is currently an idea discussed among devs how to improve it: We could change it in a way that an army automatically decides if it fights back or only defends based on its offensive and defensive stats. If an army is better in attacking, it would automatically fight back when being attacked. If an army is better in defending, it would only defend without attacking back.

There are of course pros and cons to this, but I want to ask you to think about it and tell me if you prefer this solution over the current status-quo or not. Thanks!

this solution is bad. It removes the skill from the game. If a noob decides to attack me with his starting infantry, it has deffencive stats, so it would just come to my provinces, and then defend there so i get more losses even if i use mmy infantry to deffend like this unit is intended to? What will happen with AC? Will they come to my provinces and use their boosted deff stats in fights? What's The point to get tanks then? If this change was implemented it would not only remove skill factor, but rebalance the game

K.Rokossovski wrote:

I don't think you understand, laaaaaga... your infantry and AC wouldn't counterattack because their defensive stat is higher than the offense. Only units like tanks, artillery, mot.inf etc would counterattack.

Also, this choice can only be made by the defender, because the attacker already automatically attacks (you cannot drive into a province and then only defend there).

Some good suggestions already, I will discuss a bit more with the devs what is possible.

@freezy can you please check out the PM I sent you.

freezy wrote:

K.Rokossovski wrote:

I don't think you understand, laaaaaga... your infantry and AC wouldn't counterattack because their defensive stat is higher than the offense. Only units like tanks, artillery, mot.inf etc would counterattack.

Yes. So If a player uses his starting inf to attack other player's provinces, nothing would change compared to now, because the defending inf would still remain in defensive mode as Inf has better defensive stats.

Also, this choice can only be made by the defender, because the attacker already automatically attacks (you cannot drive into a province and then only defend there).

Some good suggestions already, I will discuss a bit more with the devs what is possible.

I'm just wondering if there's any update on this front.

Is it still true that any "defenders" who aren't in the center of a province will counter-attack if provoked? It seems like it is, but I just want to confirm that there isn't something more nuanced going on here, like the proposed solution above.

(This is my first post here. I love this game, and all the thought that has gone into it. Math + combat = fun for me.)

Thanks!

Yes no change was released yet.

The proposed solution (armies automatically decide if they only defend or stack attacking based on their stats) was coded, but it is a riskier change within the combat system where alot of edge cases have to be tested, but our QA currently doesn't have time to test the feature properly. But they hopefully will have time within the next 1-2 months.

Try this one...lvl 3 bunker in a city with 4 at guns. Armor stack comes in and I get the initial surprise hit. Then my AT guns start "attacking"....bye bye AT guns.

freezy wrote:

Yes no change was released yet.

The proposed solution (armies automatically decide if they only defend or stack attacking based on their stats) was coded, but it is a riskier change within the combat system where alot of edge cases have to be tested, but our QA currently doesn't have time to test the feature properly. But they hopefully will have time within the next 1-2 months.