Doctrines

Who even cares about doctrines? You have a good strategy? You win!

Claudio von Panjim wrote:

Who even cares about doctrines? You have a good strategy? You win!

Suna232 wrote:

Claudio von Panjim wrote:

Who even cares about doctrines? You have a good strategy? You win!

You are wrong, buth i guess everyone plays the game on his own way.

If one Allies heavy tank fought a Axis heavy tank, the Allied one would lose.

BrutusTrump wrote:

If one Allies heavy tank fought a Axis heavy tank, the Allied one would lose.

Well, I'm just showing that doctrines do matter.

Claudio von Panjim wrote:

prove me wrong

Comintern has cheaper units and even have extra discounts on some (infantry, artillery), and also have rocket artillery available earlier, SP rocket also stronger. Comintern has units with 95% value and 85% cost, and 75% upkeeps. Thanks to that Comintern don't need to invest in economy heavily and need to expand to get more cities to produce instead (they have lower costs but not production times).

If you spammed rocket artillery, regular artillery, heavy tanks and infantry as Axis and invested a lot in expanding instead of boosting economy you'd just get awfully behind. Axis have higher costs but not production times so they need economy urgently to keep up with their production. Axis also have buffed mot infantry and attack bombers which you can use to defend easily early game - mot infantry can arrive anywhere very quickly to snipe enemy units and destroy infantry, attack bombers destroy tanks easily.

Confusing Pan-Asian with Allies would be a grave mistake as well. Allies are good at slowly conquering and have good tactical bombers, as well as faster production and research, making them worse early game when they have to target weak countries and defend against strong ones. But the upgrades and research can change games, they allow you to develop a better economy and you need that for producing a lot of units in little time.

Allies will be better off with defensive units that can hold the position and slowly push your opponent back, so we'd expect rocket fighters, SP Arty, possibly heavy tanks and surely, a lot of bombers.

Pan-Asian are the exact opposite. Pan Interceptors have extra range and damage against planes, making them amazing for covering quick assaults deep into enemy territory. All units have extra speed and terrain bonus which you can turn into a large advantage if you're able to strike before the enemy reacts appropriately. You have very good naval bombers, making it easy to defend large shorelines, again the interceptors can play a crucial role against enemy airforce there. I personally still use cruisers instead of battleships as Pan, but that'd be your choice.

Every good player will agree that doctrines are a very important part of the game and not considering them is just... ignorance, lack of knowledge about the game.

Hornetkeeper wrote:

Tedned wrote:

I voted Allies, but I will note that Comentern has slight per resourse advantage over axis. Axis troops are 15% stronger than baseline, but cost 10% so they are 5% stronger than baseline per resourse...

The time difference is quite significant. An Axis player gains an advantage once his economy is good as he needs fewer cities to produce a force of equal strength than you.I may sound like a nerd saying this, but you were... inaccurate.

Axis units cost 10% more, have 15% more damage AND 15% more health so you get 1.3225 of strength at the cost of 1.1. You could argue it should be 1.30 of strength but health and damage multiply, so it's 1.15 ^ 2. That means they are about 20.23% stronger than the baseline per resource.

Comintern gets 0.95 strength at the cost of 0.85, which translates to being 11.8% stronger than baseline per resource. They also have a -25% discount on upkeeps, the extra -12% can have an impact but is difficult to include in the math (sorry, would need to apply to real battle).

Now I will sound like a nerd when I apply this to real battle.

Say we have 17 units for Axis, 22 for Comintern, which reflects the cost difference. Let's assume we will be fighting in groups of less than 11 and so the damage cap doesn't get involved.

That way Comintern have the strength of 22 (health) . 20.9 (damage) against the Axis' 19.55 (health) . 19.55 (damage). Turns out Comintern still win as we were only evaluating the cost efficiency of Axis in a 1v1 fight. When the Comintern bonus gives them more units, they have more health times more damage, making them more effective (Lanchester's square law). In this case Axis have the strength of 385.16, Comintern 459.8 (rounded). As the square law is already reflected, we could just subtract Axis from Comintern to figure how much health Comintern will have left.

To be fair and factor in reduced damage efficiency due to damaged units, we can now use a fight of two armies that have equal health and the strength is just their damage. That will still give the same result as if we simulated the battles using the original damage and health values, which would be annoying to calculate though (almost the same result, as more health relative to damage makes the superior army win with slightly more health left). We'll assume the random factor doesn't exist for now.

Axis the right, Comintern left side.

1st round: 8000 hp 385.16 damage VS. 8000 hp 459.8 damage

2nd: 7540.2 hp 367.45 damage VS. 7614.8 hp 442.1 damage

3rd: 7097.8 hp 349.6 damage VS. 7247.3 hp 425.2 damage

...

27th: RIP VS. 2419.8 hp (30.25%)

The list of Comintern advantages does not end there... or does it?

There are 22 Comintern units per 17 Axis ones. Upkeeps are about 4.6% of the unit cost for Axis. Therefore, they will be about 4.511% of the cost for Comintern (both are daily). That means, the Comintern player will lose about 99.24% of the cost of one unit per day, Axis will lose 78.2% (but 78.2% of a more valuable unit).

99.24-78.2=21.04%.

This means, Axis will gain an extra unit per 10 units every 8 days, 1 hour and 42 min. That's a very insignificant advantage, but still...

Again running a test with 8 hp and 1 damage units, 10 units against 11. The 11 win with 17.8% health left. This time simplified as it assumes damage is equally spread across all units (they don't get killed), but still shows how much an extra unit can add to an army.

But those are just straight-up combat advantages. We have to keep in mind that Axis have different unique buffs, which mostly affect fast units, making Axis a better doctrine for active players. Speed can change battles, a faster army can chase down the most vulnerable enemies and escape fights it doesn't want to take.

Be sure you'd find some little mistakes in my equations, but let's hope there is enough maff to discourage anyone from verifying that whole, lol.

vietcong2005 wrote:

Not necessary. 30 of my Comintern units got crushed by 8 axis units.

If you have a god strategy, you MUST build artillery which answers everything

I was ahead of him in levels. Comintern doctrine is just straight up terrible. In late game when you have a large economy it won't matter if troops are more expensive. You will have the capability to produce them. The Comintern doctrine is only good in mid game. In late game and early game it's terrible.

Claudio von Panjim wrote:

If you have a god strategy, you MUST build artillery which answers everything

I usually play as a naval nation and use my battleships and carriers to a great effect.

Hornetkeeper wrote:

Claudio von Panjim wrote:

If you have a god strategy, you MUST build artillery which answers everything

Allies have tactical bombers available from day 1. Research and produce them out of 2-3 air factories while upgrading your economy, sell food and buy rare materials and occasionally other resources. Then those tac bombers can easily wipe out the artillery, and in enough numbers, even the AA. A single AA gun gets destroyed by 4+ tactical bombers and isn't even effective. The arty player just gets destroyed. Same when facing Axis mot infantry, they will easily kill your early game infantry and barely receive any damage from the arty which has poor damage against infantry. Get rushed...

Claudio von Panjim wrote:

In a good strategy, you can beat it

Hornetkeeper wrote:

vietcong2005 wrote:

Not necessary. 30 of my Comintern units got crushed by 8 axis units.

Then you were most likely behind in levels or were using the wrong units. 5 infantry lv2 beat 9 infantry lv1 even with the same doctrine. But losing 30 units to 8 if they are the same type and level, is a mastapizza. 8 units of 1.325 strength could never beat 30 units of 0.9 strength in a straight-up battle, even factoring in bad RNG for the 30...

vietcong2005 wrote:

I was ahead of him in levels. Comintern doctrine is just straight up terrible. In late game when you have a large economy it won't matter if troops are more expensive. You will have the capability to produce them. The Comintern doctrine is only good in mid game. In late game and early game it's terrible.

So late game is comintern time...

The clue is: other doctrin mostly kill comintern before it can dominate.

Hornetkeeper wrote:

Claudio von Panjim wrote:

In a good strategy, you can beat it

True, but if you don't know doctrines you'll never have a good strategy. Try AvA games or atleast WaW instead of Clash of Nations with your strategy, you'll see when you get obliterated.

If you want more troops the Allied doctrine is the way to go. They can produce troops extremely fast and the research is inexpensive. I can pump out a hundred units with the allied doctrine, while others can only pump out 60 or 70.

Last Warrior wrote:

vietcong2005 wrote:

I was ahead of him in levels. Comintern doctrine is just straight up terrible. In late game when you have a large economy it won't matter if troops are more expensive. You will have the capability to produce them. The Comintern doctrine is only good in mid game. In late game and early game it's terrible.

In late game it is only matter of large economy, and with comintern you can have 20% more troops, while they only 10% less power, but same HP's with allies, while nearby 20% less power, but only 10% less HP as axis, while 10% less power, but 10% more HP's as asian.

So late game is comintern time...

The clue is: other doctrin mostly kill comintern before it can dominate.