Hello all,
While I consider myself to be an apt player regarding economy and how to manage it - I need to get something off my chest.
Right now, I am controlling Ma-Clicque on a pacific map and the negative grain issue is just silly. Im building improvements on basically anything that has the yellow marker of grain on it, disabled all my barracks and avoid producing units that cost a lot of grain upkeep.
Here is the kicker. Even if I had no army AT ALL, I would still be down 300-400 grain per hour. Seems to me something is broken on the world maps, and the pacific map perhaps in particular. I do not mind tough economic games (on the contrary!), but impossible scenarios once you attain a certain...size is something that rubs me the wrong way.
Question/Suggestion to devs - either change the map to have more grain resources, lower the manpower amount (A LOT!) based on population, or fix it in whatever way that is convienient for players.
Look, Im not asking for an easy economic solution, I like to plan and fight for my economic balance. But having a nearly impossible situation (my population eats more grain than I produce, and I am really dumping infra/factories everywhere) is just disheartening.
Ive experienced this on other big maps, but not as much as on the 50p map I currently play in.
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A surprise update on my side.
Currently in 2 big maps. No grain issues...well, not many. Just keep on building stuff.
Oh, and it helps if your country is a grain shed, like Korea or North Brasil (like the 2 I am playing in the aforementioned maps).
Still, its absolutely broken, but I wanted to add a bit of positivity, I guess.
The 25p map is the only map where food problems really can't be dealt with in late game (and an expanded empire), all other maps are doable.
I think the crux of the matter is that captured food provinces only produce 25% of max, while the population eats 100% of daiy requirement. Do the math and that is unsustainable. I agree also that spending so much time and resources on food production takes away from the game and consumes too much resources that need to go into the fight. There definitely needs to be some effort on the player to manage his resources, but at this time it is tilted to much the other way.
I think rather, the real cause of the problem is that many players are trying to rape a fine-constructed, complex and slow (long-term) strategy-game as an ordinary, fast action-play...m1tanker632 wrote:
I think the crux of the matter is that captured food provinces only produce 25% of max, while the population eats 100% of daiy requirement. Do the math and that is unsustainable. I agree also that spending so much time and resources on food production takes away from the game and consumes too much resources that need to go into the fight. There definitely needs to be some effort on the player to manage his resources, but at this time it is tilted to much the other way.
"Amateurs talk about strategy and tactics; professionals study logistics." -- common adage
Logistics is an element of military science whose importance is primary and unavoidable. Logistics, in short, is the science of keeping an army adequately and timely supplied with food, equipment, munitions and other necessary war materiel. If you ignore the necessity of feeding your army, as well as your civilian population, in addition to keeping your modern mechanized army adequately supplied with oil, you will lose.
Exactly.MontanaBB wrote:
Logistics is an element of military science whose importance is primary and unavoidable. Logistics, in short, is the science of keeping an army adequately and timely supplied with food, equipment, munitions and other necessary war materiel. If you ignore the necessity of feeding your army, as well as your civilian population, in addition to keeping your modern mechanized army adequately supplied with oil, you will lose.
There is a lot more to this game than click the "produce light tank" button and send it careening across the map.
While everyone or most would agree that it's critical to keep your resources and army size and distribution well managed, it is not untrue that some games/scenarios can put tight constraints on what you are able to accomplish with even the best management. While we could all more or less improve our management skills, I think the question is if some of the constraints are a bit too severe and if it would be better for the game to make some changes. I'm not saying that changes should or should not be made, but I would like to hear more articulation of why people think there should or should not be changes, instead of simply dropping the "manage your resources better" line.
I don't mind the resource management portion of the game, in fact its one of the drawing features for me in this game. However I just think the problem with grain comes down to scaling issues. The game has certain systems built in to limit/require management of resources so people do not just build massive armies. Which would be a determent to the game as a whole.
The one difference with grain versus the other resources is that it is consumed by the population. (Goods are as well but at about half the rate as food.) While playing within a smaller region this is not that big of a deal, but as you grow so does the consumption rate and the scale of consumption greatly outpaces your ability to produce. Management can help to alleviate some of this but as you grow so does the required management till it becomes unattainable to maintain.
Now hopefully by this time you have saved up large amounts of grain stores to ride out till the end, but a little bit of tweaking here and there may improve game experience and not detract from it.
Now in a death spiral...50 days into the game I am now the dominate player. I am now in the "food" death spiral" Now that I am in it is there a strategy to get out of it? I am minus 550 per hour, all provinces' moral is in decline, I don't have the resources to keep building new infrastructure etc on my food provinces and keep fighting three enemy single handedly. Any ideas?
Be aggressive and sloppy, killing as many of theirs as you can as you lose yours. Let them capture your provs so you can regroup. Get res under control and rebuild.
ouch
What about a mad dash to one of their most exposed capitals and get the moral boost while falling back?
there is no quick fix . With that in mind I think you need to go through your territories and shut down as many of your barracks as possible. They use food to be operational. I have saved a lot of food production using that tip in the past. also look at consolidating unit groups go into a more defensive posture for a while pull out of areas where there are no point values first and then lower point values next. Every territory uses food. If it doesnt give you points its just holding you back. ( unless of course it leaves your controlled area vulnerable ) next look at ship ports shut those down if they are not being used again like barracks they use up food. Not as much as barracks but they do use up some and in a food death spiral every bit counts. Also you must .. this is 100 % necessary ... find ways to invest in food production.. no way around it That must be accomplished for you to advance again. Also as resources allow you can build fortifications in food growing territories because if your moral is lower than 100% your food production will be accordingly lower a fortification raises moral 5 % every level. There are more ways to increase food production but thats a good start. Lastly I will add that raising the moral of territories around food producing territories that have low moral will increase the moral of your food producing teritory. click on the small black i icon in the territory view box it will list all the reasons for the moral level you now have in that territory. I guess one more thing to add is being at war with less countries will raise your moral. so if there are for example a few countries you are at war with that have only a few territories left take them over and that puts them off your at war list. therefore moving towards higher moral for being at war with less countries. hope that helpsm1tanker632 wrote:
Now in a death spiral...50 days into the game I am now the dominate player. I am now in the "food" death spiral" Now that I am in it is there a strategy to get out of it? I am minus 550 per hour, all provinces' moral is in decline, I don't have the resources to keep building new infrastructure etc on my food provinces and keep fighting three enemy single handedly. Any ideas?
Is this the 25p map? In that case, you're doomed. If it's the 100p or one of the 50p maps, you have a chance, see above.
Currently Im in a 100p map where I am finally making some progress and the game will likely be won. Yet, the only reason I didnt face the grain monster, is that I stockpiled a gazillion units of grain. Still 450k, at -1000 per hour, but it should be enough to get things wrapped up.
Its almost like one of those old arcade games, where you have a timer.
Oh, and of course I maxed out basically anything grain related at decent morale, including many forts. Oh 2: My country is very heavy on grain in cores (north brasil).
All in end, unless one of the devs decides that this is indeed gamebreaking and integrates one of the many excellent solutions offered in this thread, I guess its something you just have to live with and plan for. Even on the 25p map.
@freezy (sorry man, dont mean to stalk)
In the past I have been at minus 6,7,8,900 food. I had a huge grain store but that didnt matter earth wide my moral dropped faster than a sky diver with no parachute. and huge amounts of territories revolted. I too had maxed out every food territory I owned both domestic and captured. I spent huge amounts of gold ... unfortunately .. to build fortifications like a mad man... as well as all the tricks I mentioned above..... in that game I believe I had to get the food situation to close to even O food production to get ahead If I recall correctly moral stopped plumitting when my food production got to about - 100 personally I never go minus anymore. its a very slippery slope. minus 50 can turn into minus 100 so fast and its not long your at minus 200 and the death spiral is at your door. if you get to minus 100 stop all territory take overs immediately. get moral up at all costs. shut down barracks etc ports etc... stop all unit production... take it very seriosly. get food production back up and then carry on.
What players don't realize is that there is a threshold at which negative food production gives a nasty minus to morale calculations. That can happen with negative resource production too. If you get hit with both, morale will plument each day that you are over the thresholds.
Yea, it's called running out of food.Lawrence Czl wrote:
there is a threshold
The morale calculation hit takes place long before you run out of food.
You need to have some number of hours worth of food. When you go below that number of hours worth of food, all provinces morale will show a minus number for food shortage. When a non-food resource other than manpower goes below that number of hours worth of the resource, all provinces will have up to a -22 for resource shortage. Now the question is how many hours worth of food do you need to have so you don't get a food shortage. It is less than 24 hours worth. So, keeping your food or other resource total positive is not sufficient.
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