Paratroopers, Not worth it.

It is highly debatable the inclusion of a unit that bypasses the linear movement of ground units. On top of that, the only way for this unit to be realistic would be to have it been extremely weak against armor (same as Militia), very strong in defense against infantry, unable to occupy directly a province (in fact, they never dropped directly in their target), automatically killed by any AA or plane in the area etc. On the flip side, they should deny the home movement advantage to the enemy units but should be unable to keep the province themselves. And of course they should be able to be reused if freed in time by the main land forces - otherwise they should simply die.

In other words, paras should be a special use unit and not a normal unit.

bigboss_ironfist wrote:

The Gran Sasso raid pulled off by Otto Skorzeny, former SS commander, CIA operative, considered the most dangerous man in Europe. He led a paratrooper op. to rescue Mussolini at the Apennine mountains.

Operation Market garden was a complete disaster, same for Operation Mercury not the great victory you make it out to be, the Germans took trumendous losses specially considering who they were fighting Grandpas and Grandmoms or 12 year old kids with pitchforks and shotguns. Everyone fit and of fighting age was at the Albanian front.

Same again for the paradrops on D day they were scattered all over the coast and render combat innefective due to dispersion.

Paratroops are not and should not be an OP super unit they are a specialized unit for unique situations just like in real life.

atreas1 wrote:

In other words, paras should be a special use unit and not a normal unit.

bigboss_ironfist wrote:

Overall, paratroopers in COW are over rated and not worth it... I am disappointed with how the decision to introduce this new unit is implemented.

Kanaris wrote:

Paratroops are not and should not be an OP super unit they are a specialized unit for unique situations just like in real life.

Yes well considered, Commandos should never have to compete with paratrooper movements. As for the Albanian front, globalism does now exist and has meant a fortitude of demise, for & against.

bigboss_ironfist wrote:

having beggun the time of tge costly Barracks lvl. 3. I have smashed apart every paratrooper usage against me.

Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

I manage to drop successfully a paratrooper in ANY province behind the enemy line. Then it is immediately (and quite cheaply, in fact) game over: rush an airbase and use that for stepping subsequent paratroopers further and further inside (I just need to have a few of them ready and on stand-by). In any but the bigger maps, it is game over while the player is still asleep (which violates the whole idea of slow movement times). Even worse, it is not even good for Bytro, as the rush is much cheaper than without paratroopers.

We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.

atreas1 wrote:

Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

I manage to drop successfully a paratrooper in ANY province behind the enemy line. Then it is immediately (and quite cheaply, in fact) game over: rush an airbase and use that for stepping subsequent paratroopers further and further inside (I just need to have a few of them ready and on stand-by). In any but the bigger maps, it is game over while the player is still asleep (which violates the whole idea of slow movement times). Even worse, it is not even good for Bytro, as the rush is much cheaper than without paratroopers.

We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.

No need since they are flying.

atreas1 wrote:

Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

I concur, paratroopers should be absolved from COW, unless they are re evaluated and made to compensate an enemy threat not only offensively but be made a defensive tactic, best suited at a middle game. This means about day 20 - 25 they should be able to be put to work. This will limit the 'golden win' scenario.

atreas1 wrote:

We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.

It will start happening, players are staring to come familiar with para tactics and these will be be destroyed by building commando units...I see the paratrooper in its decision to implement as virtually useless currently.

atreas1 wrote:

Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

I manage to drop successfully a paratrooper in ANY province behind the enemy line. Then it is immediately (and quite cheaply, in fact) game over: rush an airbase and use that for stepping subsequent paratroopers further and further inside (I just need to have a few of them ready and on stand-by). In any but the bigger maps, it is game over while the player is still asleep (which violates the whole idea of slow movement times). Even worse, it is not even good for Bytro, as the rush is much cheaper than without paratroopers.

We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.

I know that. It will be a second wave:

1 paratrooper takes the province

Aitbase is rushed (no need to finish)

Another paratrooper will hop from there.

Cheap, easy and killing. With 5-9 hops you are in the cores while the opponent is still sleeping.

My estimation is that, having in mind the expected size of a country at Day 10, it needs just to rush 15 paras and 8 airbases to deliver such a blow the rest will be trivial (a guaranteed win after that). The cost for rushing is so small, compared to all other rushes, that I doubt it is for the benefit of Bytro and of the game.

There can be remedies for that (for example, not to allow rushing airbases lvl 1 would be sufficient). Then in defense you need to really have a guard in your airbases, which is both reasonable and normal. Perhaps (?) the test did only check the regular use, where the 10 hours delay would indeed be sufficient.

A simple fix to the para rush tactic is to prevent them from capturing a province until after the existing wait time for moving.

One thing I would like to see is to allow them to be droppable on friendly territory - I would use them as a rapid reaction force then.

As to their historical utility they were generally elite and highly effective units - when not dropped. When dropped they routinely suffered heavy casualties but their mere presence would cause confusion and disruption in enemy formations. But I agree they were most effective in small deployments more like raids than assaults.

Elite Canuck wrote:

A simple fix to the para rush tactic is to prevent them from capturing a province until after the existing wait time for moving.

I would go for a much shortened wait time but killing the enemy is the point - territory is the bait

I haven't encountered anyone using the rush tactic some are worried about, if they do it does need to be addressed and this would be one way.

The obvious remedy is not leaving important provinces without defense. I get it that nobody wants to have to garrison a lot of territories, particularly key ones, but that is the way to stop the para rush.

Elite Canuck wrote:

As to their historical utility they were generally elite and highly effective units - when not dropped. When dropped they routinely suffered heavy casualties but their mere presence would cause confusion and disruption in enemy formations. But I agree they were most effective in small deployments more like raids than assaults.

Casualties is certainly a consideration that COW rules needs to address with regards to the paratrooper unit. There needs to be less emphasis on building requirements and further strategy conditions on terrain impacts, also that snow should be introduced, with that said the alpine unit too.

Elite Canuck wrote:

I haven't encountered anyone using the rush tactic some are worried about, if they do it does need to be addressed and this would be one way.

On rush tactic...it does need to be addressed, the added expense of barracks lvl. 3 and airfield has not thwarted rush spenders and I have only beaten such rush tactics anyways...eventually paratroopers will need modifying and I think that province capture timing needs to be addressed.

Don't allow paras to drop into cities. Rush tactic avoided.

WHEN DROPPED, paras had 3 major uses:

1. Paras were used as speed bumps to delay the enemy from reaching where the fighting was (D-Day). They were expendable. Ground units cannot get passed them without destroying them. Artillery and Tac Air used to destroy them cannot be used against the main troops. Although, paras were only used with air superiority. So, Tac Air shouldn't be a problem.

2. Paras were used to secure an objective and hold it until the main force arrived (Operation Market Garden). Here, they succeeded with 3 of the 4 drops.

3. Paras were used to capture air bases in isolated areas in low unit conflicts (Crete). It took 16-24 hours for the paras to consolidate and take the air bases so the regular troops could be flown in and take the island.

All 3 cases can be modeled by simply not allowing Paras to drop in cities, assuming you have air superiority like they always had.

1. Speed bump - Drop between the fighting and enemy reinforcements.

2. Grab Objective - Drop on the other side of the objective to delay reinforcements until your troops take the objective.

3. Grab Air Bases in isolated areas - Drop next to the city, wait the 10 hours (normal time for paras to consolidate and take care of small garrisons), then build Air Base.

And, remember, the Paras always had air superiority.

Paras never dropped into major cities, like the ones on the map.

I agree...paratroopers should be at a lesser advantage when making advancement on cities.....SPLAT!

I have already put through how units should be implemented early 2019....These format types are viable and will work on any COW map. There is no need for a big debacle of paratrooper useless unit here...it is just another condition of gamepley.

PLEASE READ...

Here is a list, of what I believe should be a introduced to alternative COW rounds.

Please fell free to leave any feedback.

MARINE:

Requirements; Barracks lvl. II,

Naval Yards lvl. I

Infantry lvl. III

Strength: 4 on any terrain except mountains (-25%)

Increased speed on coastal cities and water

PARATROOPER;

Requirements; Barracks lvl. II

Airbase lvl. I

Infantry lvl. III

Can only land on visible terrain,

Load time, 30 - 60 minutes,

On enemy ground landing strength; -25% mountains, -50% City, -25% hills/forest/jungles, -10% grassland

Cannot land on occupied ground

GUARD;

Requirements; Infantry lvl. I & militia lvl. I

Strength at 2.0 capacity

Can only be stationed in cities

Decreased morale loss to the city stationed

% increase to counter spies/espionage

Only defends

RANGER UNIT:

Requirements; Requires motorized infantry lvl. II

% strength increase in forests, jungles, hills

% increase in health healing

STEALTH BOMBER; (1945 - 1954 era)

Requirements; tactical bomber lvl. VI

Ignores radar

RADAR BASE

Requirements; Research

lvl. I Airbase

Decreases fog of war where built

CAPITAL WORKS;

Attributes; lvl. I increase wealth 10%

lvl. II increase wealth 10%

lvl. III increase wealth 10%

Can only be built in capital city

HOSPITAL;

Attributes; Increased morale & healing

Population growth

GROUP I; ALLIED TYPE

Infantry; Increased HP, Marine unit

Increased HP motorized infantry

Decreased cost artillery

Faster production time, fighter wing

Armour; Increased HP, heavy tank

Increase HP, mobile artillery

Naval; Increased HP, Destroyer

Increased HP, Carrier

Air; Increased HP, strategic bomber

Special; Faster research time strategic bomber & radar.

GROUP II; AXIS TYPE

Infantry; Increased HP, anti air

Faster production time for infantry

Increased HP, paratrooper

Armour; Increased HP, light tank

Increased HP, armoured car

Naval; Increased HP, submarine

Increase HP, cruiser

Air; Increase HP, tac bombers

Increase HP, rocket fighter

Special; Increase HP, rail gun

Decrease cost, missile

GROUP III; SOVIET TYPE

Infantry; Faster time militia production

Increase HP, artillery

Decrease cost commando

Armour; Increase HP, medium tank

Increase HP. mobile anti air

Naval; Increase HP, Nuclear submarine

Air; Reduced research time, fighter wing

Special; Increased capacity for espionage (upgrade spies)

Reduced cost, atomic research & nuclear power research

GROUP IV; EASTERN TYPE

Infantry; Increased HP, infantry

Increased HP, anti armour

Increase HP, guard

Armour; Increase HP, light tank

Increase HP, tank destroyer

Naval; Faster production time, submarine

Increase HP, Battleship

Air; Decreased cost, fighter wing

Increase HP, Naval bomber

Faster research time, jet fighter

I hope that these ideas help to make resonate alternative formats for COW.

atreas1 wrote:

Instead of the theories, it is time to recognize that paratroopers are in fact a threat to the game itself, because they are in a way bypassing the only real constraint for an easy "golden win" - the movement time. Consider the following scenario.

I manage to drop successfully a paratrooper in ANY province behind the enemy line. Then it is immediately (and quite cheaply, in fact) game over: rush an airbase and use that for stepping subsequent paratroopers further and further inside (I just need to have a few of them ready and on stand-by). In any but the bigger maps, it is game over while the player is still asleep (which violates the whole idea of slow movement times). Even worse, it is not even good for Bytro, as the rush is much cheaper than without paratroopers.

We can all wait till this (obvious exploit) starts happening, or we can start thinking of some potential remedy, before we see this scenario happening again and again. I am sure that neither the players nor Bytro will be happy with that.

I haven't, but if I would, I would just go play another map.