Call of War 1.5: Mechanics & New Balancing

Some unit stats make no sense, for example my Tank Destroyer has an attack of 6 I think against SUBS.

Also note that Destroyers now do damage to troops.

The big questions:

1. What is the reason for this new game? (given S1 already exists)

a. If it is made to draw the 'blessed players' out of The Real CoW, so that true RTGS lovers can finally play active maps with challenging opponents, I am all for it. It also implies The Real CoW would not be scrapped or replaced with this 'attempt to make a new RTS'.

So, are you actually saying: "Sorry guys, we know that we do the wrong marketing and promotion and attract too many of the wrong players, which messes up our great game. But now we are luring them into their own little kids-playground, away from you. Now they can go bumble around - illogically, uncoordinated and 'blessed' - as they always do, without going inactive in your maps. Therefore we created 1.5 as a trap-game for those players, where nothing is logical or interconnected and which lacks any and all realism".

b. If it is not meant as mentioned under [a], but it is still meant to cater for the type of 'blessed players' we see in The Real CoW (because 1.5 is clearly not for your real players) then: why not promote S1 to them?

c. Money?

This way not from me. If you want my money, change back to after August 28, 2018 and before the BAD CHANGES. Then pls increase the price of HC in 2-3 steps from 50€ to 99€ for 12 months (AGAIN for your marketing guys: NOT a blunt 100€ as in S1 pls!! Fool me! I am just a consumer after all) and pls spend the proceeds on promoting the game THE RIGHT WAY TO THE RIGHT PLAYERS.

Then you will make money.

d. Player retention? I predict that has already FAILED before you even started. You will lose players. No further comments. Time will tell you I am right.

2. Who are the target group for this game? (given S1 already exists)

I truly have no idea, since, if it is your player base of CoW, you will only replace CoW with Pokemon-CoW 1.5.

But Pokemon-CoW is not an evolution of CoW though; it is something completely different.

CoW could also evolve more logically and likable, like the VW Golf kept its buyers through the ages by evolving and growing alongside them; NOT by becoming a completely different type of vehicle. And actually you (Bytro) were doing that, with added units, tweaked units, events, maps etc.

It is truly puzzling me! Pokemon-CoW will throw out a number of your real, long-time and loyal customers, leaving you with the known bunch of blessed players ... and will attract who? Right; more blessed players...

=> How on earth is this a winning proposition for Bytro? Puzzling! Unless the majority of 'blessed players' compensates their ignorance with lots of gold, it eludes me.

(I do know it is a losing proposition for me and many others)

Feedback from the two 1.5 games that I'm playing (day 6

Likes:

1. Some units are more useful - motorised infantry, tank destroyers, destroyers can now bombard ground units.

2. faster construction time at lower levels.

3. faster combat resolution.

4. Separation of armaments and civilian construction facilities is a good idea but I'm unconvinced about the value of separate tank and ordnance facilities.

HOWEVER ... faster construction/combat resolution means you need to be online more frequently. These changes alter the early game strategy significantly and favour players with short attention spans who want a quick shoot-em-up game. Personally I prefer a longer game where economic management is important and diverse units are correctly deployed. I will soon lose interest in CoW if playing it no longer fits into my lifestyle.

Dislikes:

1. Starting resources, particularly manpower, are far too little.

2. Inability to upgrade existing units is a major hassle ... devalues the purpose of research.

3. Combined cost of building and upgrading all the different facilities is far too high.

4. No morale penalty for attacking multiple players. Favours players who simply attack everybody.

Bug on the map:

Crimea isn't listed in the diplomacy menu so you can only attack by surprise.

The current settings make it far too easy for players to simply use their resources to build level 1 tanks and attack everything within reach. Defending against such an attack leaves insufficient resources to develop your own economy and army. With most resources centred in only five cities, the loss of one city can be a crippling and possibly fatal blow.

Overall I'm not enjoying either 1.5 game I'm playing as much as I usually do. My usual preferred tactics of waiting a few days while developing my economy and doing research doesn't seem to work in this version.

MikiRaine wrote:

please add weather system in COW 1.5.

I have no problem if the air units is OP but if we have weather system (air units cannot be deployed due to bad weather, ineffiecient tanks due to autumn rains, inefficient infantry units due to cold winter), maybe, just maybe, the game will improve much and the weather system will provide more variables for balancing...

Firstly I am imagining weather to consist of two things, a random chance and duration of it occurring and it having negative implications. Given it is not a thing atm, this is what I will be working with.

Why would it be TERRIBLE! Well because CoW is designed so you can come on lets say 5 times a day for 10 minutes each. Now everyone comes on at random times. If weather was a thing it would mean sometimes when you get on you cannot use your planes/another unit, other times you can. You may come on 5 times and each time get bad weather and your enemy 5 times and get 0 penalties. This would be COMPLETELY unfair and just terrible for balancing and everything. It wouldn't balance anything but instead making it a simply unplayable.

Any system that places negative/positive buffs on anything at random times CANNOT be something that is done.

It would be totally unbalanced, and mean that the design of the game breaks - that is it is a RTS game that goes over weeks, if you cannot use a unit for the limited time you log on then it would ruin the game. You cannot penalise players for logging on a few times a day or reward them based on luck of good/bad weather.

Hopefully this explains why weather would be terrible and if the devs are designing something like this to cancel it. Ofc I have no idea if they are so if they are not then great lol.

Sherman Firefly wrote:

Feedback from the two 1.5 games that I'm playing (day 6

Likes:

1. Some units are more useful - motorised infantry, tank destroyers, destroyers can now bombard ground units.

2. faster construction time at lower levels.

3. faster combat resolution.

4. Separation of armaments and civilian construction facilities is a good idea but I'm unconvinced about the value of separate tank and ordnance facilities.

HOWEVER ... faster construction/combat resolution means you need to be online more frequently. These changes alter the early game strategy significantly and favour players with short attention spans who want a quick shoot-em-up game. Personally I prefer a longer game where economic management is important and diverse units are correctly deployed. I will soon lose interest in CoW if playing it no longer fits into my lifestyle.

Dislikes:

1. Starting resources, particularly manpower, are far too little.

2. Inability to upgrade existing units is a major hassle ... devalues the purpose of research.

3. Combined cost of building and upgrading all the different facilities is far too high.

4. No morale penalty for attacking multiple players. Favours players who simply attack everybody.

Bug on the map:

Crimea isn't listed in the diplomacy menu so you can only attack by surprise.

The current settings make it far too easy for players to simply use their resources to build level 1 tanks and attack everything within reach. Defending against such an attack leaves insufficient resources to develop your own economy and army. With most resources centred in only five cities, the loss of one city can be a crippling and possibly fatal blow.

Overall I'm not enjoying either 1.5 game I'm playing as much as I usually do. My usual preferred tactics of waiting a few days while developing my economy and doing research doesn't seem to work in this version.

The ability to upgrade units is something that is being worked on and as far as I know will be implemented in one of the future testing games.

I agree with starting rss being an issue but I believe this is going to be updated and increased based upon Freezy's responce to my exact concern yesterday.

I do agree with your issue about "Combined cost of building and upgrading all the different facilities is far too high." And am not sure if it is being updated/tweaked.

4. No morale penalty for attacking multiple players. Favours players who simply attack everybody.

An interesting one, I like it personally as i'm often fighting 1v3-5s but I can see your concern with it, distance from cap modifier is now increased and decreases moral further. This was done (no -5 for wars) as this is a war game so penalising players for war doesn't make much sense.

I find it interesting that you found it worse to wait a few days to attack in this version than before. I am the kind of player who normally attacks players day 1. In this I had to wait till day 4 to attack due to the fact infantry is better for defence, and I had to wait for lvl 2 units as lvl 1 units are a waste of rss as lvl 2 are 2x as strong. The build up was stronger and relatively faster than before due to faster unit production.

Furthermore, if a player builds lvl 1 tanks atm, you could easily build some AT at the start of the game, cheaper and better to counter, esp as +50% strength in urban. And then build your own superior lvl 2 tanks and counter and kill him. I believe day 1 rushes in this version will be less successful, which is why I did not do it in my game. This is something that can be done currently, or something you could do too so I think it is a impacts all players equally, whether they defend or attack. But as I said, given inf is 2x better at defence, AT is cheaper and stronger than a LT, defence is stronger early game. Lvl 2 troops are 2x as strong but not 2x as expensive, so waiting for lvl 2 troops and defending that day 1 rush should result in you (the defender) winning.

Im sorry to hear your not enjoying 1.5, hopefully this helps with some of your concerns and provides solutions to the day 1 rush. More questions to counter that send me a message. And hopefully a dev answers the question of whether "Combined cost of building and upgrading all the different facilities is far too high." is going to be tweaked.

I've been playing a 1.5 game pretty solid now for 4 days. In general, everything seems to be working well and in particular, the reduced variance is totally fantastic! I also really like the 30 minute tic.

I haven't run into any of the unit balancing issues a lot of people have brought up, but so far I've just been mainly using arty, inf and ACs. I'm sure real unit balance issues will come up, but it will take a lot of play to figure it out, as different strategies and counter strategies evolve. Based on unit stats in general though, defense may be a bit OP. However, this might be a good thing for the average player who has only a few hours a day to play.

I haven't really had that much trouble with resources. Manpower was a bit limiting the first day or two (probably too much research), but manpower has always been limiting in COW. I focused on Industry and that, and slowing down on research, has solved the manpower problem for now, but manpower probably should ultimately be a limiting factor as your army grows. I had a slight problem with goods due to producing arty, but that's to be expected. My biggest deficit has been oil and that is due to alway upgrading Industry. Again, something should limit how fast you can make things. I'm sure more efficient initial development strategies will be figured out over time, but some kind of resource limit is necessary so you can't just make everything all of the time.

I like units not auto upgrading, but manual upgrades would be very painful.

How about a disband option, gives you some resource and all the manpower back.

disband unit should cost money and give only remained manpower and nothing from ressources. And under remained manpower i mean % of remained HP.

Slowly i begin to like new version, in hope coming reballancing. Some buildings should be cheaper and have less buildingstime. I mean rural buildings exept, airstrip. Airstrip buildtimepenalty prevent rushing, its ok how it is.

Seatransports should have same level of unit level, but maximal researched seatransport level.

It should prevent using lowcost lvl 1 units to be op highlevel seatransport. Seatransports stats are argueble, but it shoul not be overnerfed. Slightky change would be enough, if seatransport get permission on unit level.

Torpedo28000 wrote:

MikiRaine wrote:

please add weather system in COW 1.5.

I have no problem if the air units is OP but if we have weather system (air units cannot be deployed due to bad weather, ineffiecient tanks due to autumn rains, inefficient infantry units due to cold winter), maybe, just maybe, the game will improve much and the weather system will provide more variables for balancing...

Personally I hope we never get weather or anything like it, and if the devs are working on it they immediately cancel it lol. Here is why:

Firstly I am imagining weather to consist of two things, a random chance and duration of it occurring and it having negative implications. Given it is not a thing atm, this is what I will be working with.

Why would it be TERRIBLE! Well because CoW is designed so you can come on lets say 5 times a day for 10 minutes each. Now everyone comes on at random times. If weather was a thing it would mean sometimes when you get on you cannot use your planes/another unit, other times you can. You may come on 5 times and each time get bad weather and your enemy 5 times and get 0 penalties. This would be COMPLETELY unfair and just terrible for balancing and everything. It wouldn't balance anything but instead making it a simply unplayable.

Any system that places negative/positive buffs on anything at random times CANNOT be something that is done.

It would be totally unbalanced, and mean that the design of the game breaks - that is it is a RTS game that goes over weeks, if you cannot use a unit for the limited time you log on then it would ruin the game. You cannot penalise players for logging on a few times a day or reward them based on luck of good/bad weather.

Hopefully this explains why weather would be terrible and if the devs are designing something like this to cancel it. Ofc I have no idea if they are so if they are not then great lol.

Also seasonal weather: spring, summer, autumn or winter: each seasons giving boosts or nerfs to each units. Seasonal weathers is dependent on real time: so meaning it is november now, so all maps have winter season. does it sounds fun? planes will be most of the time cannot fly. lol

if it sounds unfair well yeah it is unfair, even for Hitler too. He should have won the war until Captain Winter stepped in.

MikiRaine wrote:

Torpedo28000 wrote:

MikiRaine wrote:

please add weather system in COW 1.5.

I have no problem if the air units is OP but if we have weather system (air units cannot be deployed due to bad weather, ineffiecient tanks due to autumn rains, inefficient infantry units due to cold winter), maybe, just maybe, the game will improve much and the weather system will provide more variables for balancing...

Personally I hope we never get weather or anything like it, and if the devs are working on it they immediately cancel it lol. Here is why:Firstly I am imagining weather to consist of two things, a random chance and duration of it occurring and it having negative implications. Given it is not a thing atm, this is what I will be working with.

Why would it be TERRIBLE! Well because CoW is designed so you can come on lets say 5 times a day for 10 minutes each. Now everyone comes on at random times. If weather was a thing it would mean sometimes when you get on you cannot use your planes/another unit, other times you can. You may come on 5 times and each time get bad weather and your enemy 5 times and get 0 penalties. This would be COMPLETELY unfair and just terrible for balancing and everything. It wouldn't balance anything but instead making it a simply unplayable.

Any system that places negative/positive buffs on anything at random times CANNOT be something that is done.

It would be totally unbalanced, and mean that the design of the game breaks - that is it is a RTS game that goes over weeks, if you cannot use a unit for the limited time you log on then it would ruin the game. You cannot penalise players for logging on a few times a day or reward them based on luck of good/bad weather.

Hopefully this explains why weather would be terrible and if the devs are designing something like this to cancel it. Ofc I have no idea if they are so if they are not then great lol.

No not 5 times a day for 10 minutes or anything like that. Just daily weather or seasonal weather, like for example on the current day it is sunny in a group of provinces you want to attack, then you can play airattack strategy or something because you know it will be sunny and nothing will stop your planes (except AA). Then after that you read the news it will be rainy or foggy tomorrow in that province, you then must adapt or change your plans: either you continue to attack without your planes, or you can defend and wait out the rain until it stops tomorrow. It will also be an advantage to the defensive player, giving respite to his troops to regroup or something.

Also seasonal weather: spring, summer, autumn or winter: each seasons giving boosts or nerfs to each units. Seasonal weathers is dependent on real time: so meaning it is november now, so all maps have winter season. does it sounds fun? planes will be most of the time cannot fly. lol

if it sounds unfair well yeah it is unfair, even for Hitler too. He should have won the war until Captain Winter stepped in.

Seasonal weather governed by what season it is in RL, no does not sound fun!!

You are not proposing something that is unfair, your are proposing something stupid!

we should get CoW version 1.0, version 1.5, version 1.0 weather edition, version 1.5 weather edition, version hardcore with high reality feeling of taktiks, economical and otherwise suppose, version kids rule with big red bottom win the game and version mods are gods and ban every one.

Guys... did this just really happen?

Don't laugh at this ....or better... you actually should laugh at this:

Took a province in Poland. Had to stop for a moment, so pulled my units together in a mixed troops def-position and went away.

Came back and see a tank army with MTs approaching from the west and LTs army from the north.

So, remembering their terrible performance during the Polish invasion ... I hurriedly pulled my LT's out of my def-position and drove them behind the lines, when these tanks (with limited Inf and other cohorts) came to attack....

Hadn't I done that, my LTs would surely have perished, as they like attracting a lot of damage and doing nothing worthwhile in def.

Now my only ACs and Inf defended with arty cover, while my tanks ran away.

(Can you imagine the shouting of the comrades from the AC and Inf detachments staying behind?: "COWARDS! USELESS MOFO'S! I WILL SHOOT YOU MYSELF WHEN YOU COME BACK AFTER THE BATTLE!".

Result though:

I don't have single casualty while enemy is dying of his last HP from the MT group.

Now pulling in the LTs again to faster finish of that last bit of the attackers.

Realism rules...somewhere....BUT NOT HERE!

RIDICULOUS...

This is the twighlight zone. Things turning weird... Could it turn even weirder?

What is that?

Triiiiing...Triiiiing.... Tríííííííííííng!!!

You hear that? A very insistent phone call from 'The Other Side'???

Should I pick up? Crazy evening! First running from def with my tanks and now this... I wonder who, why...?

Trííííííííííííííííííííng!!!

I better pick up...

Hello?... Yes!... Herr Rommel???? Ofc I know of you!

What? You are turning around in your grave? Well, it is not my fault it works that way. I just saved the tanks.

No, no, ofc I understand that tanks have excellent defensive capabilities. Yes, everyone knows...except at Bytro...

Yes. No! I understand you think they must be Americans; making razor blades etc; but I assure you they are not Americans.

Excuse me? What they are? Ehhh....Europeans, Herr Rommel.

Uhhhh....uhm.... No, not Italians.... They actually are German, Herr Rommel.

Who is joining the call? Herr Guderian! Gutenabend. Sicher, habe auch von Ihnen gehört. Wie bitte?

Shoot them on sight? But...but...Herr Guderian, Herr Rommel... we don't do such things anymore.

(Guys I am turning the phone towards you now, because Guderian is really shouting...)

"....If you are not going to shoot them... HANG 'M!! Zis iz an Order!!"

Torpedo28000 wrote:

MikiRaine wrote:

please add weather system in COW 1.5.

I have no problem if the air units is OP but if we have weather system (air units cannot be deployed due to bad weather, ineffiecient tanks due to autumn rains, inefficient infantry units due to cold winter), maybe, just maybe, the game will improve much and the weather system will provide more variables for balancing...

Personally I hope we never get weather or anything like it, and if the devs are working on it they immediately cancel it lol. Here is why:

Probably there could be tech to develop to counter this anyway: research wider tracks and so forth.

But don't worry. Even if it would make for a great simulation of reality, this is exactly the opposite direction of where we are going with 1.5 or better: Pokemon-CoW.

Torpedo28000 wrote:

rushes in this version will be less successful

Attackers only need to concentrate some forces and thus easily overpower any spread out defense. Did it before my Arty came out of the factories and wiped Yugo off of the map (well 90% of it) with 3 concentrated groups of the initially given troops.

The immense benefit:

- significantly increased manpower INSTANTLY

- idem for resources, but starting moral of province ofc 25%, so instantly a good increase and day 2-3-4 the big bonus.

Immediately attacking is the only solution to the resource, manpower and cash crunch at the beginning.

Continuously attacking is the only solution to the ever worse manpower and resource situation.

Only when you become big, resource, cash and manpower issues are resolved.... Unless you buy with gold ofc.

- The increase in income from attacking can impossibly be generated with IC building on your own provinces.

- Same or even more so for manpower: IC level 5 on my best core gives 300 extra manpower, but costs 3600 men...; 4 useless enemy provinces do the same and cost nothing.

- The increase in resources becomes enormous after moral has restored a bit in conquered provinces and costs nothing, whereas building IC's for that purpose rob you of resources, cash and manpower, needed for research and the war industry.

Pokemon-CoW simply favors attack. On the side it offers an option to first develop and then burst out of your bubble, but only to those who have not yet been destroyed. A pure gamble. Not strategy.

Kinda have a mixed opinion about the update so far

Positives:

- Faster early game

- Specialized cities, allows for more advanced strategic planning

- Unit levels don't upgrade automatically emphasizing research more. Although I suggest adding an upgrade button to existing units or a button to disband units to free up upkeep

- Combat as a whole is a lot easier to understand and faster in general

Negatives:

- Units and unit levels are thrown out of balance quite heavily, TD's seem more powerful than they should be for example

- Resources lost their distinction, it makes no sense that you require oil and rares to make base infantry for example. It was much more strategic when you had to consider what resources you had at the start and how you would tune your production for it. For example, as an island nation with one oil should I completely forego tanks so I can get a proper navy and airforce or do I try and balance it out at the expense of all 3 to stay flexible?

- Buildings seem a little more complex than they need to be, despite the added strategy. What exactly makes Ordnance and Tank factories different for example? What the heck is up with the "Secret Lab" and why did it replace the Nuclear Plant?

- This ties into the resource thing but why does research no longer cost rares? That was a pretty critical part to formulating your strategy - what you were going to dedicate precious rares into for research.

The only thing slowing me continuously in my unstoppable conquest with these über-simple mechanics and Purple-Monster -units is ... resource, cash and manpower constraints.

In all other aspects the 'blessed players' have even less of a chance then they had before.

Good players will ofc quickly analyse their situation and take the appropriate action.

Thus as soon as the better player remedies his res, cash and manpower issues, the 'blessed players' will simply be mopped up.

The lack of choice in this simplified compromise between The Real CoW and S1 is deadly:

1. Deadly for the dimwi... ermmm.... 'blessed players'.

2. Deadly for the better players ... Deadly boring that is!

Alphared wrote:

MikiRaine wrote:

Torpedo28000 wrote:

MikiRaine wrote:

please add weather system in COW 1.5.

I have no problem if the air units is OP but if we have weather system (air units cannot be deployed due to bad weather, ineffiecient tanks due to autumn rains, inefficient infantry units due to cold winter), maybe, just maybe, the game will improve much and the weather system will provide more variables for balancing...

Personally I hope we never get weather or anything like it, and if the devs are working on it they immediately cancel it lol. Here is why:Firstly I am imagining weather to consist of two things, a random chance and duration of it occurring and it having negative implications. Given it is not a thing atm, this is what I will be working with.

Why would it be TERRIBLE! Well because CoW is designed so you can come on lets say 5 times a day for 10 minutes each. Now everyone comes on at random times. If weather was a thing it would mean sometimes when you get on you cannot use your planes/another unit, other times you can. You may come on 5 times and each time get bad weather and your enemy 5 times and get 0 penalties. This would be COMPLETELY unfair and just terrible for balancing and everything. It wouldn't balance anything but instead making it a simply unplayable.

Any system that places negative/positive buffs on anything at random times CANNOT be something that is done.

It would be totally unbalanced, and mean that the design of the game breaks - that is it is a RTS game that goes over weeks, if you cannot use a unit for the limited time you log on then it would ruin the game. You cannot penalise players for logging on a few times a day or reward them based on luck of good/bad weather.

Hopefully this explains why weather would be terrible and if the devs are designing something like this to cancel it. Ofc I have no idea if they are so if they are not then great lol.

No not 5 times a day for 10 minutes or anything like that. Just daily weather or seasonal weather, like for example on the current day it is sunny in a group of provinces you want to attack, then you can play airattack strategy or something because you know it will be sunny and nothing will stop your planes (except AA). Then after that you read the news it will be rainy or foggy tomorrow in that province, you then must adapt or change your plans: either you continue to attack without your planes, or you can defend and wait out the rain until it stops tomorrow. It will also be an advantage to the defensive player, giving respite to his troops to regroup or something.Also seasonal weather: spring, summer, autumn or winter: each seasons giving boosts or nerfs to each units. Seasonal weathers is dependent on real time: so meaning it is november now, so all maps have winter season. does it sounds fun? planes will be most of the time cannot fly. lol

if it sounds unfair well yeah it is unfair, even for Hitler too. He should have won the war until Captain Winter stepped in.

I think the Moderator answered this quite well, and more civilly then most would have. It is, to say it bluntly, a stupid idea. Weather can only be a penalty - there is no bonus side to it... and worse it will be a random penalty over which a player has no control. Weather being random, the game effect would also have to be random... who is going to want to play after a solid week of randomized penalties to their game? Who is going to want to read through a list, a vvverrry long list of ALL the provinces for "tomorrows" weather everyday... you, who else?!?!

Seasonal weather governed by what season it is in RL, no does not sound fun!!

You are not proposing something that is unfair, your are proposing something stupid!

I can agree that my idea is stupid. Poor Hitler, he stupidly lost to Captain Winter lol. And that is why we are playing the game now, with our capitalist phones, not Nazi-made Mac PCs with Fascism propaganda ads LOL

_Pontus_ wrote:

Torpedo28000 wrote:

MikiRaine wrote:

please add weather system in COW 1.5.

I have no problem if the air units is OP but if we have weather system (air units cannot be deployed due to bad weather, ineffiecient tanks due to autumn rains, inefficient infantry units due to cold winter), maybe, just maybe, the game will improve much and the weather system will provide more variables for balancing...

Personally I hope we never get weather or anything like it, and if the devs are working on it they immediately cancel it lol. Here is why:

If we get weather for planes, we should also get mud for the tanks, blazing heat for the infantry and for instance freezing ice-drizzle on the artillery....

Probably there could be tech to develop to counter this anyway: research wider tracks and so forth.

But don't worry. Even if it would make for a great simulation of reality, this is exactly the opposite direction of where we are going with 1.5 or better: Pokemon-CoW.

still lmao in Pokemon-COW