Call of War 1.5 - Urban Provinces & New Buildings

Thank you for the new features in CoW 1.5 but I hate it.

-This update eliminates strategic troop construction, as now you are forced to build everything in cities.

-It adds a new layer of complication with these "tank plants" and "ordnance factories".

-It removes the necessity to worry about your economy as you can now just conquer as much as you want without giving a second thought about it. Without having to worry about economy, almost all economic strategies go out the window.

-It rewards players for mindlessly attacking. To some, this may be a good thing. To me, certainly not. Not having to worry about morale dropping and economic ruin removes a HUGE layer of strategic gameplay.

And this is just one part of the update.

This update, if not severely adjusted, is going to turn the game into a mindless Cookie Clicker style game with extra steps. Strategy is being sacrificed in this update for the sake of attracting more casual players who don't want to carefully consider their actions.

iDragons wrote:

-It removes the necessity to worry about your economy as you can now just conquer as much as you want without giving a second thought about it. Without having to worry about economy, almost all economic strategies go out the window.

Nearly all of the complaints I have read against 1.5 are pure speculation and mean nothing. Experience playing 1.5 is the only thing that will show us what it actually is.

I wish everyone would stop calling 1.5 an "update". It is the introduction of a new game that borrows features from CoW and others. No problem in itself, but big problem if it replaces the current CoW. Players have been asking for fixes to known problems, not for a new game.

Ryan04px2025 wrote:

But will this make Call of War more complicated and hard to produce units fast?

Nooberium wrote:

Players have been asking for fixes to known problems, not for a new game.

With this set of changes, we are now required to produce new units of higher level while already-produced units don't automatically gain a level when we've researched it. I'm worried that this will drastically affect my K/D Ratio.

Last Warrior wrote:

at least swarming cheat is almoast solved, or strong weakened, because airforces in version 1.5 have double (ASF) to triple (Bombers) stronger Att stats then def stats.

Dosdrvanya wrote:

Except that the "swarming cheat" isn't a cheat. It's a tactic called "overwhelming force", which military powers have been employing since the stone age.

Last Warrior wrote:

Nooberium wrote:

Players have been asking for fixes to known problems, not for a new game.

at least swarming cheat is almoast solved, or strong weakened, because airforces in version 1.5 have double (ASF) to triple (Bombers) stronger Att stats then def stats.

Heck, I hardly build any air-force and take them out with ease, because there is (used to be) an answer to every tactic of any opponent.

I guess it is because of the incompetence of certain players - who call good tactics cheats bc they can't be bothered to think of a fitting answer - we are now seeing these horrible changes to our game.

Thank you Last Warrior...not!

Btw, you will still be bombed to hell, because you will still see swarms of bombers ripping you apart. Just now it will be 20 tacs of level 1 and 2x20 of level 2 and 3x20 of level 3 etc.

And with every level their attack doubles and HP increases, so your higher anti-air capacity is dwindled with the increased power of the aerial forces.

So, prepare to die like you always do OR finally start thinking-up an answer that works.

Last Warrior wrote:

Dosdrvanya wrote:

Except that the "swarming cheat" isn't a cheat. It's a tactic called "overwhelming force", which military powers have been employing since the stone age.

If you dont know what swarming cheat in CoW is, dont write some wrong stuff...

@Pontus you dont know WHAT SWARMING CHEAT in CoW really is. I will not explain, so less cheater go arround....

P.S. swarming cheat is not eqaul to using 100 tac.bombers at same time.

swarming cheat give you possibility with less airforce killing greater airforce if enemy is offline, or dont know or dont see you use cheat.

swarming cheat is not taktik, it is bug using.

Nooberium wrote:

iDragons wrote:

-It removes the necessity to worry about your economy as you can now just conquer as much as you want without giving a second thought about it. Without having to worry about economy, almost all economic strategies go out the window.

Are you even playing 1.5? It took me less than a day to see that this is totally false. The 1.5 economy has a deceptively similar look at first, but operates very differently. EVERYTHING costs (untradeable) Manpower, making it the most critical resource. Non-urban provinces are very important for providing it.

Nearly all of the complaints I have read against 1.5 are pure speculation and mean nothing. Experience playing 1.5 is the only thing that will show us what it actually is.

I wish everyone would stop calling 1.5 an "update". It is the introduction of a new game that borrows features from CoW and others. No problem in itself, but big problem if it replaces the current CoW. Players have been asking for fixes to known problems, not for a new game.

There is no speculation in what people have noticed and what boils down to: the game has been severely dumbed-down .... at least for the more intelligent players among us.

Last Warrior wrote:

less airforce killing greater airforce if enemy is offline

Pontus, if you citate me, so use it right, i said cheater can kill greater airforce if a) enemy offline, or b) enemy dont know what swarming is, or c) enemy dont see, cheater use swarming right now...

stop lieing, if you dont even know about swarming...

P.S. If it was not a cheat, why did developers solved this cheat in version 1.5?

Last Warrior wrote:

P.S. If it was not a cheat, why did developers solved this cheat in version 1.5?

and since CoW is dead now and CoW-1 is what you will play now (not me though; seen enough is S1 and if want to play a game like that, I will play S1), why so scared to divulge your knowledge of that horrid cheat which no longer applies?

If I were Bytro...I would use my various developments as follows

I would have a portfolio of different games attracting different players, avoiding cannibalization.

In this portfolio I would have;

- a true RT-GS-MMO, like the old CoW, catering for long term, loyal players, making me a guaranteed amount of money; a cash cow.

- a faster paced and simpler game like Supremacy 1, which differs significantly from the RT-GS-MMO and thus attracts different players and where gold is harder to beat with just skill and/or HC

- create a new game - basically using the same mechanics but on a much faster clock, like the 10x speed rounds - for players looking for action

That would retain the old player base and open roads for attracting new players, who, once accustomed to the basic mechanics, will try out the other games of the same publisher and become a loyal client of any of the tree branches.

IMO turning everything into the same thing is not going to get Bytro anywhere

Nooberium wrote:

Nearly all of the complaints I have read against 1.5 are pure speculation and mean nothing. Experience playing 1.5 is the only thing that will show us what it actually is.

I wish everyone would stop calling 1.5 an "update". It is the introduction of a new game that borrows features from CoW and others. No problem in itself, but big problem if it replaces the current CoW. Players have been asking for fixes to known problems, not for a new game.

_Pontus_ wrote:

Gawd, Noob-erium, some of us actually took the trouble to play S1.... You didn't.

There is no speculation in what people have noticed and what boils down to: the game has been severely dumbed-down .... at least for the more intelligent players among us.

Perhaps you missed my final point. I want CoW 1.4 to survive so I can play it. I will however give 1.5 a fair chance. Not playing S1 may be a plus since I can play without prejudice. I don't expect other CoW players to like 1.5, partly from comparisons to S1 and partly from the required learning curve. After I have a good look, I'll know if I think a game like 1.5 is worth playing, but not before.

All that said, it seems to me we generally agree on most of what is important (to me) and I appreciate your efforts to save/improve the existing CoW. Our disagreements appear to involve only game play preferences. But just sayin' - this forum will feel friendlier if we all allow for the possibility that there are other intelligent players who don't see the game as we do.

EZ Dolittle wrote:

Infrastructure no longer increases production, so I would suspect that it will be very rarely used at first unless there is a much more significant movement bonus.

_Pontus_ wrote:

You are so right. The dark times are here. CoW is dead. I am running to where there is light,

iDragons wrote:

Thank you for the new features in CoW 1.5 but I hate it.

-This update eliminates strategic troop construction, as now you are forced to build everything in cities.

-It adds a new layer of complication with these "tank plants" and "ordnance factories".

-It removes the necessity to worry about your economy as you can now just conquer as much as you want without giving a second thought about it. Without having to worry about economy, almost all economic strategies go out the window.

-It rewards players for mindlessly attacking. To some, this may be a good thing. To me, certainly not. Not having to worry about morale dropping and economic ruin removes a HUGE layer of strategic gameplay.

And this is just one part of the update.

This update, if not severely adjusted, is going to turn the game into a mindless Cookie Clicker style game with extra steps. Strategy is being sacrificed in this update for the sake of attracting more casual players who don't want to carefully consider their actions.

- Let's be honest, in the base CoW game 80% of troop production still happened in urban provinces, because that's where players started with Industry Complexes, which they leveled up. So in practice not too much will change regarding where players produce their troops. We hope to make troop production decisions more meaningful by adding the different production buildings. Due to resource costs players may have to dedicate different cities to different unit types, leveling different production buildings in them.

- I would argue that you still cannot conquer as much as you want, because the more players you attack, the more resistance you meet. Province morale may not bring you down anymore, but other players will. YOu also have to keep morale penalties from low morale neighbors or enemy neighbors in mind. Also, the current morale system is not the end result yet, we plan to do more morale based features in the future. Maybe you will be more pleased with them

Last Warrior wrote:

Nooberium wrote:

Players have been asking for fixes to known problems, not for a new game.

at least swarming cheat is almoast solved, or strong weakened, because airforces in version 1.5 have double (ASF) to triple (Bombers) stronger Att stats then def stats.

Dosdrvanya wrote:

With this set of changes, we are now required to produce new units of higher level while already-produced units don't automatically gain a level when we've researched it. I'm worried that this will drastically affect my K/D Ratio.

_Pontus_ wrote:

And with every level their attack doubles and HP increases

freezy wrote:

EZ Dolittle wrote:

Infrastructure no longer increases production, so I would suspect that it will be very rarely used at first unless there is a much more significant movement bonus.

Movement bonus from Infrastructure is indeed higher in 1.5 than in the base game.

_Pontus_ wrote:

You are so right. The dark times are here. CoW is dead. I am running to where there is light,

This and some other posts of you in this thread are sadly perfect examples of feedback that is not useful to us. You may not like certain aspects of the game, but please argue with us in a more civil and less hyperbolic way. We can only tweak these aspects if we get opinions based on concrete examples from playing CoW 1.5. And we will certainly tweak alot in thecoming months, this is not the final version.

iDragons wrote:

Thank you for the new features in CoW 1.5 but I hate it.

-This update eliminates strategic troop construction, as now you are forced to build everything in cities.

-It adds a new layer of complication with these "tank plants" and "ordnance factories".

-It removes the necessity to worry about your economy as you can now just conquer as much as you want without giving a second thought about it. Without having to worry about economy, almost all economic strategies go out the window.

-It rewards players for mindlessly attacking. To some, this may be a good thing. To me, certainly not. Not having to worry about morale dropping and economic ruin removes a HUGE layer of strategic gameplay.

And this is just one part of the update.

This update, if not severely adjusted, is going to turn the game into a mindless Cookie Clicker style game with extra steps. Strategy is being sacrificed in this update for the sake of attracting more casual players who don't want to carefully consider their actions.

We will adjust the update, don't worry about that. To comment on your detailed feedback:- Let's be honest, in the base CoW game 80% of troop production still happened in urban provinces, because that's where players started with Industry Complexes, which they leveled up. So in practice not too much will change regarding where players produce their troops. We hope to make troop production decisions more meaningful by adding the different production buildings. Due to resource costs players may have to dedicate different cities to different unit types, leveling different production buildings in them.

- I would argue that you still cannot conquer as much as you want, because the more players you attack, the more resistance you meet. Province morale may not bring you down anymore, but other players will. YOu also have to keep morale penalties from low morale neighbors or enemy neighbors in mind. Also, the current morale system is not the end result yet, we plan to do more morale based features in the future. Maybe you will be more pleased with them

Last Warrior wrote:

Nooberium wrote:

Players have been asking for fixes to known problems, not for a new game.

at least swarming cheat is almoast solved, or strong weakened, because airforces in version 1.5 have double (ASF) to triple (Bombers) stronger Att stats then def stats.

The plane stats in CoW 1.5 are indeed a result of the existance of this exploit. It should also make direct attacks on other planes more worthwhile compared to patroling.

Dosdrvanya wrote:

With this set of changes, we are now required to produce new units of higher level while already-produced units don't automatically gain a level when we've researched it. I'm worried that this will drastically affect my K/D Ratio.

Hmmm statistics are not everything? The additional losses you will have with low level units will be compensated by the additional kills you will get using higher level units. Plus, we are planning to implement functionality to upgrade your units on the map manually, in future versions.

_Pontus_ wrote:

And with every level their attack doubles and HP increases

No, not the case. In S1 they, but not in CoW 1.5. One of the reasons why giving feedback based on experiencing 1.5 is more valuable. Currently values per level are linearly improved by amounts similar to the first level. Means there is only a doubling from first to second level.

- A few interesting mechanics you could borrow from a few other games, which you would be familiar with in the HOI series is the option to upgrade older units over time with resources as the cost. So older units would gradually upgrade if you choose to do so - If you wanted a "Realistic" reason for this mechanic, it would be new supplies being shipped to the front. Other rules could include being in your own provinces and or this or that. I just re-read your post and you mentioned something about upgrading.

- In base CoW, or at least for Competitive Play at the very least, we would indeed stick to our core Urbans for most troop production AND build one or two extra ICs in resource provinces early game. In the older versions of CoW before the resource tweaks, we would aim to build three to four plus which was quite easy for a few years with proper resource management. The overall goal in early game CoW was to pump out Infra, then switching it over to LTs, with minor amounts of infantry + Lts and /INTTactical. Focusing to Urbans was only done because we already had them, and we only built a few more for some resource bumps and extra early to mid game troop production. Another reason ICs weren't built en masse was that CoW was more of a aggressive game, and the goal was to seize our opponents IC/Production centers(And the AI surrounding us) ASAP. Their were very few alliance games where people sat back defensively and did mass build IC. It was a sort of gameplay encouraged by good game mechanics that could be flexible and change depending on the game. Not something that was solidified and set in stone.

This is just from my general opinion, but the division of IC into multiple different structures feels more or less like a needless resource sink. From our opinion, SP1914 and by CoW followed a set template that these changes are disrupting - And it would be better than a overall new template be made than the current change which at its current state is a inferior version of the past templates, broken.

- One issue that many of us in the older community had with Bytro updates is that they never felt as if they were properly tested before hand. For example, I recall when the original HTML5 client for SP1914 was released to replace the Java one, and it was so horrible and buggy on its official release after official testing that the Java client was reinstated. I vaguely recall many other issues in regard to patches and updates in general across Bytro games. I am saying this as I hope that Call of War V1.5 is for the time being kept as a completely separate game for the next year or so while players test it and work the kinks out of the system for you.

- You should probably revert the horrible market and trading tweaks you made to this game as well as coalitions. To artificial and annoying.

- If you would like some better accurate feedback, you should launch special 5v5 Competitive team games among the older more experienced players and alliances who have been playing your games since 07-08, well what is left of them, some of the later ones since 11-13. In tandem with a few competitive FFA No-Gold games. This would help give you a feel for making a more solid game - In tandem you could also make live changes to statistics and things real time in coordination with the players. You do have a Volunteer Staff - This is something you should or could be using them for. In combination with having them get a good Google Doc and listing out every single issue, suggestion, and just raw data from their end. That would probably be more useful then just throwing up a live game for all randoms to join. You'd be able to get more solid feedback and hard data from the older people that play these games than just generalizations.With full public transparency. But only if you want to go the extra mile. I'm fully aware of current mobile gaming industry standards and how hard it can be to make a profit. I'm more or less aware that in game development these days, their are some choices which can lead to more money but a less interesting game from a gamers perspective, and choices that would make for a more interesting-depth game, but wouldn't make as much money. Please do not take what I am saying in general as a insult, merely feedback - With the hope that V1.5 after it's rough start and a good amount of work, will be fun.

You have some interesting starter points here with V1.5.

Ok having played 1.5 for a shirt time these are my first thoughts.

I like the new buildings.

I do NOT like the new costs, it feels like you have made all of the resources the same. Every unit takes some of everything to be built. Resource homogeny is not a good idea in my mind; rare is no longer rare, oil is no longer oil - they might as well be resource X and Y.

Effectively players could have only 1 resource that being equal to their lowest resource available. An argument could be made that the market would be used to adjust peoples resource, but it is hard to see that working in the play test as the countries all have the same production. If a country had a low production of resource X then it would be hard pressed if it could not find more of that resource to purchase.