Controlled Airspace

MontanaBB wrote:

Personally, I think this "fix" is far worse than the "problem."

Quasi-duck wrote:

This isn't even a fix, it is a lazy effort by the company who either couldn't, or wouldn't, fix a glitch in the game.

I had noticed the damage caused by a single L6 tactical bomber unit that I left on patrol over an AI country when I fell asleep late during a game last summer. The amount of damage to buildings caused by a single TB squadron in 8 hours was, of course, trivial -- TBs are not really designed to attack ground installations. But it was enough to nick one building of several and to be reported in the in-game newspaper.

Given the relatively small magnitude of the problem, I can think of whole host of solutions that are less damaging to well-established game strategies and tactics. Aerial reconnaissance is fundamental to modern warfare since World War I, and placing the decision to automatically declare war in the hands of the game software borders on criminally stupid.

@Sasri

speaking of realism : declaring war because of air space violation, do you know just how important such decision is ?

sending an entire nation to war, how devastating can it be for such a ridiculous reason ? do you think declaring war is something leaders do every afternoon ? and for what ? c'mon man

this is a game yes but realism is the pretext the devs used so ...

+ declaring war is not a decision that a sergent or even a colonel takes, it's the commander in chief of the armed forces ( in this case the player)

this update means that any lieutenant (CPU) can declare war because he saw a foreign plane in the sky

yeah and think about later in the game when u are at war and an AI country lies between. You used to be able to fly over an Ai to get to your target. Now you must reroute or go to war with another country. So now you take the speed away from the air force. Why not just do away with planes altogether. Last time is was bump up all forms of anti aircraft, now its slow down planes, and make it so your morale stays low all the time as you fight one random nation after another. It seems they just want to slow the game down more and more, which is the biggest reason new players quit after a very short time. I would love to hear Bytros business mission, because it must be very advanced; beyond my scope of understanding. Frustrating.

mio123 wrote:

it's the commander in chief of the armed forces

Dixie wrote:

You used to be able to fly over an Ai to get to your target. Now you must reroute or go to war with another country

Overflights are still possible. Please read carefully!

However, be careful that the published explanation might be in error, and that simple overflights might in fact, cause an unintentional war.

Sasri wrote:

As soon as an enemy aircraft operates inside your country’s airspace, war will be declared.

Psst...easier to just change it back and fix the bug that let an at peace patrol do damage.

darksoul111 wrote:

german reconaissance flights in early 1941 were flying at 6000 meters and still got spotted and shot down

i mean, you could know if its a German plane if you just look at the wings. if it has this mark, shoot it. simple as that

@King Draza Mihajlovic my point was just to say that yes, reconaissance flights were a provocative action and were shot down, therefore the new rule doesn't come out of nowhere.

Out of historical accuracy though, you bet that reconaissance german planes didn't have the Balkenkreuz... They were sometimes also civilian aircraft fitted with some kind of camo.

Dixie wrote:

Sasri wrote:

As soon as an enemy aircraft operates inside your country’s airspace, war will be declared.

Good point Waynebo. @Sasri please clarify. does the plane have to patrol before triggering war, or will simply entering the territory trigger it? And if Sasri busy @freezy @Dr. Leipreachan

Thank you all again for the feedback as always. You will get more info on the change later on.

TesloTorpedo wrote:

THIS IS TERRIBLE!

I had aircraft patrolling over AI countries that were powerful, and now I cannot make our relation back to peace. ...

I myself have the case on a 25p map with elite AI, where my usual patrols at the borders has brought me suddenly

without warning 3 wars, as I discovered when I came to the map the next time after the update.

Planning and construction of nearly three months destroyed in a surprise attack (and not for the first time), Congratulations Bytro, good job

I'm confused (Yes it doesn't take much) So if I set the patrol center in my country and it covers part of another players province is that ok ? My patrol is centered over my territory and the the partial overflight is not centered at the player next door is that war/no war ?

It is only a minor hindrance anyway as I intend to conquer them and be victorious with my superior gaming skills and healthy CC balance lol

Restrisiko wrote:

This is the worst thing about the whole stupid thing, that such a serious change again was not announced before it comes into running games. In certain circumstances the whole map is broken now.

I myself have the case on a 25p map with elite AI, where my usual patrols at the borders has brought me suddenly

without warning 3 wars, as I discovered when I came to the map the next time after the update.

Planning and construction of nearly three months destroyed in a surprise attack (and not for the first time), Congratulations Bytro, good job

Hi guys. I want to give you an explanation why this change was done:

1) It is actually a bug fix. Planes on patrol always do damage while patroling. Normally, when damage is dealt, war is triggered in all cases. This was bugged for airplanes over neutral countries. Planes were able to do damage to neutral buildings and units, but did not get damage in return because there was no war. This way it was possible to decimate armies of neutral countries without consequences. This was reported to us by community members and they asked us to fix it. This change was therefore done because the community wanted to stop that abuse, and it was not just an arbitrary decision. Now war is triggers so that damage is dealt to both sides.

2) It is now consistent with ground units, that also trigger the warning popup and war when trespassing. One could argue that the same realism arguments could apply to ground units as well, but there the behaviour is accepted as everyone is used to it. Therefore it is expected that everyone will get used to the airplane behaviour in the same way.

3) Flying over neutral countries is still possible. War is only triggered once the patrol starts, as then damage is dealt. As long as you don't do damage to units or buildings, no war is triggered.

4) Because of the above, there are still possibilities to check for armies in neutral countries:

a) Give a move or patrol command to your planes at the other side of the neutral country, so that your planes just fly over it.

b) Give a patrol command inside the neutral country, but stop it or redirect the plane before it starts the patrol at the target destination.

c) Set the patrol in a way that the center of the patrol radius (the point in the middle) is on your territory or befriended territory or water. Then no damage is dealt to the neutral units/buildings even if part of the patrol circle overlaps with the neutral province/units. This way it is still possible to permanently spy out neutral borders and the area behind it. It is also more realistic that planes can spy without consequence only in border areas, and not in the middle of the other country.

5) The air units in our game are not single planes, but squadrons. It is very unlikely that a whole squadron would be able to spy in the middle of another country without being noticed by anyone.

6) We feel that it is unfair that the spied out nations has to take the burden to declare war to stop it, when the hostile action is actually done by the spying nation. This could also lead to negative consequences for the spied on nations in games with elite AI.

7) Planes are not meant to be permanent spies. For that we have the espionage option, please use it if you want to spy out countries without them noticing. It is good that espionage gets more meaning now with this change, as it was substituted too much by the easy way of scouting with planes.

What we agree on is that the change probably should have been communicated beforehand so players can adjust their strategies in time, We didn't really think about that because we regarded it more as a bug fix, pologies for that. If you feel that your game has been impacted in a super unfair way because of that, feel free to write a support ticket to get help.

We are discussing how we can improve this for future changes.

I hope that this clears up some things, thanks for your attention

freezy wrote:

2) It is now consistent with ground units, that also trigger the warning popup and war when trespassing. One could argue that the same realism arguments could apply to ground units as well, but there the behaviour is accepted as everyone is used to it. Therefore it is expected that everyone will get used to the airplane behaviour in the same way.

freezy wrote:

It is actually a bug fix. Planes on patrol always do damage while patroling

The correct fix to this major design flaw would have been to disallow ANY patrolling aircraft to inflict damage.

Quasi-duck wrote:

The reason countries go to war over ground units moving in is because ground units can hold ground.... Aircraft can't. The intent of ground units is, and has always been, to hold ground. If an aircraft is only flying over for recon then so what, they flew overhead. This is why the Cold War is not known as WWIII....

WayneBo wrote:

The 'bug' is that planes do damage while on patrol, every 15 minutes, and for as long as a player leaves the planes on patrol. Some assumed mid-air rearming?The correct fix to this major design flaw would have been to disallow ANY patrolling aircraft to inflict damage.

King Draza Mihajlovic wrote:

you guys can still scout with planes, so why do you guys even care about this?

Quasi-duck wrote:

freezy wrote:

2) It is now consistent with ground units, that also trigger the warning popup and war when trespassing. One could argue that the same realism arguments could apply to ground units as well, but there the behaviour is accepted as everyone is used to it. Therefore it is expected that everyone will get used to the airplane behaviour in the same way.

The reason countries go to war over ground units moving in is because ground units can hold ground.... Aircraft can't. The intent of ground units is, and has always been, to hold ground. If an aircraft is only flying over for recon then so what, they flew overhead. This is why the Cold War is not known as WWIII....

WayneBo wrote:

freezy wrote:

It is actually a bug fix. Planes on patrol always do damage while patroling

The 'bug' is that planes do damage while on patrol, every 15 minutes, and for as long as a player leaves the planes on patrol. Some assumed mid-air rearming?The correct fix to this major design flaw would have been to disallow ANY patrolling aircraft to inflict damage.

MontanaBB wrote:

King Draza Mihajlovic wrote:

you guys can still scout with planes, so why do you guys even care about this?

You need to explain this, KDM, because I don't believe that even @Sasri and @freezy understand the actual dynamics of the change they are trying to explain here. Their explanations do NOT reflect the reality of your experiment results from last night.