Release Notes - 2022-08-31

jubjub bird wrote:

My understanding was that "rare materials" was just to encompass all the stuff outside of food, oil, goods, and steel. Rubber and nuclear material and whatnot. It also helps balance things (like 5 cities per country and 5 different resource types), and I think the current balance works well.

I got used to the old new icon but I think this one is probably better and I'm sure we'll all get used to it. My only feedback is to shrink it a bit (which you said is already planned). You may have to increase the contrast a bit if it's smaller but I'm sure it will be fine.

If we were to just use resources and manpower to pay for units there would be vast empty spaces.

For a strategy game, there just isn't enough units. period, end of story. Of course unless you gold. But even if you gold, if others have scarce units. not much fun there either.

also, if there is separate builds for buildings/ why not separate set of resources for both?

Some of the changes have seriously negated units. For instance infantry. This is now a useless unit. Like useless. Its stats and costs make no sense.

When changes are made does the devs discuss any of this before implementing? or you go with it and adjust as you go? Which is what it seems to be.

Infantry after lev 2 is just not worth it what so ever. You better off with Militia by far and wide. Lev3 Militia will make mince meat of lev3 or lev4 infantry.

I could go on with flaws. Roads .. another flaw. Why not highlight the roads? Fortifications, why can we not place them in the province where we want like a unit?

City or provincial defense. Why units? If I can build fortification, why not have a build provincial/ city def force?

This might not be the best place to discuss this, but the topic of resources and playability has really left me a little confused with the 2.0.

Another example. Troop maintenance costs make it impossible to have defense and offense on a large map.

even with golding there is limitations. I know I have tried.

My core nation is completely at full production and loyalty and I am just underwhelmed at output. Not impressed.

Remember this is not dissing, but all observations.

And stacks. Can we stop the ridiculous stacking. Have a maximum. Its just nonsense. I see stacks of 35 and 50 and 60s.

You have a game with a lot of potential. The mechanics are fun. The concept is good. But I still believe much more can be done.

Thats my 2 cents for today lol.

freezy wrote:

Z. Sakki wrote:

I think the problem with rares is that they're really only used in planes and that's it.

Not only in planes, also in secret units. Rocket Artillery, Rockets, Nukes etc all need mainly rare materials.

Z. Sakki wrote:

No one builds rockets and nukes are only available at the very last stages of the game. Rocket artys use rares sure but barely anyone builds them, planes more or less still are the only units that use rares.

Agreed. Rocket artillery appears late. Railroad guns kinda suck, compared to how long it takes to research, build, and move them into position.

The evidence is that rares are worthless on the market in most games. Even with experienced players cranking out air forces, nobody wants rares. What runs out? Oil. Goods. Food.

Moss20 wrote:

For a strategy game, there just isn't enough units. period, end of story. Of course unless you gold. But even if you gold, if others have scarce units. not much fun there either.

...

also, if there is separate builds for buildings/ why not separate set of resources for both?

...

Infantry after lev 2 is just not worth it what so ever. You better off with Militia by far and wide. Lev3 Militia will make mince meat of lev3 or lev4 infantry.

...

I could go on with flaws. Roads .. another flaw. Why not highlight the roads? Fortifications, why can we not place them in the province where we want like a unit?

...

City or provincial defense. Why units? If I can build fortification, why not have a build provincial/ city def force?

...

Another example. Troop maintenance costs make it impossible to have defense and offense on a large map.

even with golding there is limitations. I know I have tried.

...

And stacks. Can we stop the ridiculous stacking. Have a maximum. Its just nonsense. I see stacks of 35 and 50 and 60s.

It's funny, I disagree with almost everything in this post

There are PLENTY of units running around the map. If anything, there are too many to manage.

Don't need more types of resources. 4 would be fine, we don't need rares.

Infantry is the queen of the early game. They remain useful for defense and garrison duty.

We can already build fortifications and bunkers, and they are not very useful.

Militia ARE your defense forces, quick to build, slow to move.

Maintenance is fine. Plan your builds properly. Mobility is key.

Lastly:

Large stacks are easy to deal with. Just ignore them. Go around and destroy everything. The stack can sit there like a (big) pile of idiots and defend 1 tile while you control the world.

If you are being attacked by a mega stack, then you lost because you allowed the enemy to get that much stronger than you. The fact their units are in a stack is a distraction. A skilled opponent would demolish you more quickly with 5 specialized stacks of 10 than with 1 mixed stack of 50.

Z. Sakki wrote:

No one builds rockets and nukes are only available at the very last stages of the game. Rocket artys use rares sure but barely anyone builds them, planes more or less still are the only units that use rares.

And saying Rares are worthless because they are only mainly used for planes is like saying Food is worthless because it is only mainly used for Infantry. Each unit type has its resource focus and if you dont build that unit type then chances are you also dont need much of the resource. For example players not producing artillery usually also dont need much goods. So it all depends on playstyle.

Interestingly most experienced players like to go for planes or rocket artilleries (at least thats a common discussion topic on discord), so rares should be in rather high demand by experienced players, but probably in low demand by other players which focus on more basic units.

Also of note: It is usually AIs which enter new offers to the market, and AIs dont produce much planes (cos they cant handle them well) and thus have excess Rares. Thats another reason why Rares may be cheaper on the market.

I agree five resources makes sense for balance given that there are five starting cities.

The secret branch could be split between air and ordnance. Strange that rocket arty falls under secret anyway.

With that said, I’ve been playing for less than a year and a half, so have seen less evolution of the game over the years than many here.

freezy wrote:

I mean sure its not the most common unit, but I already saw lots of experienced players saying they always go for rocket artillery as fast as possible. Especially when Comintern.

And saying Rares are worthless because they are only mainly used for planes is like saying Food is worthless because it is only mainly used for Infantry. Each unit type has its resource focus and if you dont build that unit type then chances are you also dont need much of the resource. For example players not producing artillery usually also dont need much goods. So it all depends on playstyle.

Interestingly most experienced players like to go for planes or rocket artilleries (at least thats a common discussion topic on discord), so rares should be in rather high demand by experienced players, but probably in low demand by other players which focus on more basic units.

Also of note: It is usually AIs which enter new offers to the market, and AIs dont produce much planes (cos they cant handle them well) and thus have excess Rares. Thats another reason whx Rares may be cheaper on the market.

Z. Sakki wrote:

freezy wrote:

I mean sure its not the most common unit, but I already saw lots of experienced players saying they always go for rocket artillery as fast as possible. Especially when Comintern.

And saying Rares are worthless because they are only mainly used for planes is like saying Food is worthless because it is only mainly used for Infantry. Each unit type has its resource focus and if you dont build that unit type then chances are you also dont need much of the resource. For example players not producing artillery usually also dont need much goods. So it all depends on playstyle.

Interestingly most experienced players like to go for planes or rocket artilleries (at least thats a common discussion topic on discord), so rares should be in rather high demand by experienced players, but probably in low demand by other players which focus on more basic units.

Also of note: It is usually AIs which enter new offers to the market, and AIs dont produce much planes (cos they cant handle them well) and thus have excess Rares. Thats another reason whx Rares may be cheaper on the market.

The thing is, out of a 100 players in a map only about 20 really use rares unlike food which all 100 will use. Everyone props up their infantry and navy but you can't say the same for planes and even more so for rocket artys. Just take a look at the market and it'll explain itself, not even a week in and rare prices are already dropping double, triple, sometimes quadruple to that of other resources. I mean you guys even reduced starting rares from 15k to 10k and still it remains as the least valued resource.

Destructo the Great wrote:

I’ve never seen it drop it always is the most expensive

Wow.

What maps are you playing, Destructo??

z00mz00m wrote:

Destructo the Great wrote:

I’ve never seen it drop it always is the most expensive

Wow.

What maps are you playing, Destructo??

Destructo the Great wrote:

z00mz00m wrote:

Destructo the Great wrote:

I’ve never seen it drop it always is the most expensive

Wow.

What maps are you playing, Destructo??

w@w

As one of the players who ALWAYS includes R.arty in their research planning no matter what doctrine I play, allow me to comment.

It is simply a GREAT unit, especially in the early game. It has all the advantages of artillery against static opponents, but it deals double damage to soft targets - and in the early game, that's almost everything. L1 is really fast to build, and the first upgrade makes them even more deadly - they're one of the few units that I upgrade for only a single level.

Since I also start heavy on expanding industry which also costs a lot of rares, that makes rares THE problem in the early game. I usually solve it by negating an early air force, I often start as late as day 6 or so on it. And of course, I'm extremely happy whenever I see rares @5 or @7 on the market, and buy it immediately (sometimes selling food to pay for it).

So Sakki, when you say their only use is air... I don't spend any on air early game, it all goes to industry and R.arty. When the industry is finished and there are like 10 R.arty roaming around, THEN it all goes to air - but not before.

K.Rokossovski wrote:

As one of the players who ALWAYS includes R.arty in their research planning no matter what doctrine I play, allow me to comment.

It is simply a GREAT unit, especially in the early game. It has all the advantages of artillery against static opponents, but it deals double damage to soft targets - and in the early game, that's almost everything. L1 is really fast to build, and the first upgrade makes them even more deadly - they're one of the few units that I upgrade for only a single level.

Since I also start heavy on expanding industry which also costs a lot of rares, that makes rares THE problem in the early game. I usually solve it by negating an early air force, I often start as late as day 6 or so on it. And of course, I'm extremely happy whenever I see rares @5 or @7 on the market, and buy it immediately (sometimes selling food to pay for it).

So Sakki, when you say their only use is air... I don't spend any on air early game, it all goes to industry and R.arty. When the industry is finished and there are like 10 R.arty roaming around, THEN it all goes to air - but not before.

However, I've taken recently to minimizing my reliance on air at all when I play Comintern (except naval bombers). In the mid game, SP Rocket arty is where it's at, but I do upgrade rocket arty (but only to level 2) with Pan Asian and go heavy on air. Funny I have very different styles with the two doctrines.

I usually find myself with extra rares in the mid and late game that I'm sharing with my partners.

Goods is the challenge, fairly consistently all game.

6thDragon wrote:

K.Rokossovski wrote:

Wow, this is virtually identical to my early game approach as well. I must be doing something right if my style mirrors the great K.Rokossovski!

K.Rokossovski wrote:

6thDragon wrote:

K.Rokossovski wrote:

Wow, this is virtually identical to my early game approach as well. I must be doing something right if my style mirrors the great K.Rokossovski!

I DO hope there's a healthy dose of irony in that adjective...

6thDragon wrote:

K.Rokossovski wrote:

As one of the players who ALWAYS includes R.arty in their research planning no matter what doctrine I play, allow me to comment.

It is simply a GREAT unit, especially in the early game. It has all the advantages of artillery against static opponents, but it deals double damage to soft targets - and in the early game, that's almost everything. L1 is really fast to build, and the first upgrade makes them even more deadly - they're one of the few units that I upgrade for only a single level.

Since I also start heavy on expanding industry which also costs a lot of rares, that makes rares THE problem in the early game. I usually solve it by negating an early air force, I often start as late as day 6 or so on it. And of course, I'm extremely happy whenever I see rares @5 or @7 on the market, and buy it immediately (sometimes selling food to pay for it).

So Sakki, when you say their only use is air... I don't spend any on air early game, it all goes to industry and R.arty. When the industry is finished and there are like 10 R.arty roaming around, THEN it all goes to air - but not before.

Wow, this is virtually identical to my early game approach as well. I must be doing something right if my style mirrors the great K.Rokossovski!

However, I've taken recently to minimizing my reliance on air at all when I play Comintern (except naval bombers). In the mid game, SP Rocket arty is where it's at, but I do upgrade rocket arty (but only to level 2) with Pan Asian and go heavy on air. Funny I have very different styles with the two doctrines.

I usually find myself with extra rares in the mid and late game that I'm sharing with my partners.

Goods is the challenge, fairly consistently all game.

6thDragon wrote:

K.Rokossovski wrote:

6thDragon wrote:

K.Rokossovski wrote:

Wow, this is virtually identical to my early game approach as well. I must be doing something right if my style mirrors the great K.Rokossovski!

I DO hope there's a healthy dose of irony in that adjective...

I've learned that not all opinions are created equal. You're consistently more insightful than most. Perhaps "the great" was over the top, but my intention was genuine compliment.

Moss20 wrote:

6thDragon wrote:

K.Rokossovski wrote:

Goods and manpower has changed. The demand is bigger. They need to retool manpower. It costs to much per unit.

Some of the manpower costs do defy logic. I get infantry units, as they are manpower intensive. Other units like planes and rockets have manpower costs that appear too high. Perhaps it's in the interest of game balance.

I also think the manpower costs of upgrading is non-sensical as well. If you have a unit at full strength, why do you need to spend half the cost in manpower to improve it to the next level? It defies any logic I can follow. Manpower is different from other resources in that you cannot trade it. This is common sense. Hopefully common sense will prevail someday with manpower costs of upgrading.

Well really, it's not that it's only used in planes per se though I acknowledge that that's what I've been declaring but more so that it, rares, are only used in one thing which most of the time are planes (hence why I just said "they're only used in planes"). I could've been more specific, my error, but the root of the argument still stands.

If you use your rares just in rartys in the first week, you're still only using it in just one thing, not planes sure but still just one thing. Compare this to food for example which is used in infantry, naval units, artys and even rartys.

Rares are just too one dimensional of a resource. The fact that their prices drop drastically very early on even though they're artificially made scarce (10k instead of 15k staring) really just speaks for itself.

Moss20 wrote:

You both are very committed to forums which helps the game overall.

Hopefully others are able to as well.

If I play a remote island nation like New Zealand it's mostly navy for the early days, so Rares not so useful in that situation. Otherwise, I need a LOT of Rares. Everything is situational and many of my opinions on the game design somehow seem to change, as something I didn't like before turns out to be the solution to a new problem. I recommend keeping an open mind.