Political Memes.

purplepizza117 wrote:

Absolutely, and I can see the Calvinism coming out in you. Though Calvin said questioning his theory of pre-judged believers was not for us to do, and not about knowing what God knows, though it is a similar concept.

Actually, I'm a student of Wesleyan teachings for the most part, but I do have a strong Calvinistic tendency due to my high school days when I went to a Baptist Christian School. I used to enjoy lots of Calvin/Wesley debates with my favorite teacher back then. He really did challenge me to put my understanding of scriptures to the test. Today, I think I have a good understanding and a well-founded perspective on our unified faith because of him.

purplepizza117 wrote:

That is very interesting... I haven't ever actually heard that perspective before. I believe in original sin (the Calvinism coming out in me ) but I have for the longest time had difficulty believing children, who could not know any better since no morality really develops until later in life, could be sent to Hell. How would a four-year old, or even a six-year-old, really truly understand the reprimands for their actions?

I was actually discussing this topic the other day with a couple of friends. When is a child old enough to be held responsible for their actions by God? Catholicism tends to give the answer of 7 years old when children first receive Communion. Islam and Judaism both give the answer of 12 to 13 years old. I'd be interested to see what you think, but for the most part I don't think a sense of morality forms until age 11 or 12.

There are lots of little things in the New Testament that many people -- even preachers -- can overlook. The small nuances of our faith can have a monumental effect on some people. For instance, if a young woman has made the mistake of having an abortion, later in life, she may come to the faith and find herself filled with a deep sorrow and regret over that mistake. But a proper Christian perspective shows her that she can be forgiven even of that heinous crime as much as even the tiniest little white lie. Because all sin IS equally rebellious against God but the sacrifice of His Son is equally powerful to atone for all sin.

At the same time, such a woman can be comforted by the knowledge that her unborn child will live a life free from the further effects of sin. They will never know what sin is. They will know only love and holiness. And they will be able to see the Lord from childhood...at least whatever we can imagine childhood might be like in Heaven.

As for the "age of accountability", I believe it is different for each individual because people mature at different rates. It may be 5 years old for one child and 10 for another. It all depends on their growth in their mind and their spirit. I accepted the Lord at only 5 or 6, but I didn't fully grasp the meaning of my faith until I was older, and so I rededicated my life at 16 so that I could have a truly memorable birth into the Family of God.

I knew that I was already acceptable and beloved of the Kingdom. But I consider my membership into the Family of God to be "official" when I knelt down on the hard floor of a meat cutting room where I was cleaning and sterilizing, while I was alone with God. It was the funniest place to find one's true faith, but it was where I found myself yearning for an assured sense that I was indeed a member of the Kingdom. For others reading, this just proves that you can be anywhere, it doesn't have to be a Church, in order to accept the free gift of salvation.

The thing that confounds me the most, is how so many people can read our testimony, and yet they close their minds and their hearts to the pull of the Holy Spirit on the door of their souls. Still, we must continue to try.

I have one more thing on this matter: I believe also that our Great Commission can't reach everyone, at least not yet. As such, there are millions and even billions of people in history that hasn't had or will not get a chance to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Are all of these automatically lost? I say no! No, it is for them, that many will be judged at the last judgement where books will be opened. People will be judged on their lives and their actions. Those who have accepted Jesus do not even take part in this judgement. Those who openly and consciencely rejected the Gospel will also not take part in this judgement. Those last are the goats and will be weeded out when the sheep are judged.

But the rest of mankind will be judged at the last judgement. These will not have the Gospel neither by choice nor intent. They will be judged by their works ... meaning that their heart condition is revealed by their actions. If they were of the kind of person that would have accepted the Gospel, then I believe they will be judged righteously. And if they would have rejected the Gospel, then they will be condemned. Thus those that we don't manage to give the Gospel to will be judged as if we had.

That is a difficult concept for many Christians to grasp. Because the Bible clearly states that the righteous will inherit the Kingdom. And they are taught that only Christians are righteous. But God knows the hearts of men and they will be judged according to His good will in spite of our ineffectiveness or inability to find and/or reach them. It is important that the Holy Spirit is shown to everyone. But for many, they won't ever get the opportunity to either accept or reject Him. Thus has been the past 2000 years since Christ, and thus has been the history of mankind prior to Christ.

However, there will come a time -- in the very near future, I believe -- when the last of mankind on earth at the time will have been reached. The Great Commission will have finally been completed. Our task will be done. And at some point soon after, the last trumpet call will gather us from the four winds for the wedding supper of the lamb. Regardless of whether you are a pre-tribulationist, mid-tribulationist, or post-tribulationist, I believe firmly that that time is coming soon.

That is a part of why I work so hard to try to reach others here and everywhere else. The time is short and we want to win more for the kingdom and I want the Lord to come quickly. The sooner the better. But not before I can reach as many as I can. That almost sounds in contradiction to my just-stated beliefs that the ignorant will be judged separately and not all unto condemnation. But our mission is a sacred mission and I want to fulfill it to the greatest extent possible. Still, I say "Come Lord, come!"

purplepizza117 wrote:

I think God knows what will happen beforehand since he is outside the physical, outside time. But the notion that God determines what happens in the world is... folly, if you will. But an opposing argument tends to be endlessly contradictory with other parts of Christian teachings: "If God is a good God why does he let bad things happen?" which a response could be given as such: "Then if God does not determine what goes on in the world, how do good things happen?" or "Does God have an overarching plan?"

I would be interested to re-open the conversation I started with you a while back, @Diabolical, that I never got around to responding to.

As I am not a true Calvinist, like Wesley, I don't believe that God predestines all believers. Yes, there are some He chooses in advance that will be greatly compelled to accept God. Perhaps even all of these will accept, but perhaps not all. But for all people we each have a genuine choice and God does give us the free will to accept His grace, even for the predestined, God will not force Himself on them. But He does not reject anyone who calls on His name. The Holy Spirit does not pick and choose for the Kingdom.

Jesus meant what He said when He said "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:16-17). Jesus didn't mean only some people. He didn't mean only chosen people. He meant ALL people. The WHOLE world might be saved. ANYONE can choose to accept the free gift of salvation. The Lord calls on ALL of us. But it is our responsibility to receive that free gift. If you refuse to accept it, it's not yours. But it is restricted to no one. And thus I don't agree with Calvin entirely because he seemed to think that only some people are called to be Christians while the above verse indicates that God calls everyone.

At the same time, God is outside of our timeline and so He sees the past and future as present. So He does know what decision we all will choose but that is not the same as choosing for us.

purplepizza117 wrote:

(I think I have joined Diabolical, at least momentarily, for having the most annoying walls of text on the Forum)

Welcome to the club....prepare for lots of rude "TL;DR's"

Diabolical wrote:

I have one more thing on this matter: I believe also that our Great Commission can't reach everyone, at least not yet. As such, there are millions and even billions of people in history that hasn't had or will not get a chance to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Are all of these automatically lost? I say no! No, it is for them, that many will be judged at the last judgement where books will be opened. People will be judged on their lives and their actions. Those who have accepted Jesus do not even take part in this judgement. Those who openly and consciencely rejected the Gospel will also not take part in this judgement. Those last are the goats and will be weeded out when the sheep are judged.

But the rest of mankind will be judged at the last judgement. These will not have the Gospel neither by choice nor intent. They will be judged by their works ... meaning that their heart condition is revealed by their actions. If they were of the kind of person that would have accepted the Gospel, then I believe they will be judged righteously. And if they would have rejected the Gospel, then they will be condemned. Thus those that we don't manage to give the Gospel to will be judged as if we had.

Diabolical wrote:

Actually, I'm a student of Wesleyan teachings for the most part, but I do have a strong Calvinistic tendency due to my high school days when I went to a Baptist Christian School. I used to enjoy lots of Calvin/Wesley debates with my favorite teacher back then. He really did challenge me to put my understanding of scriptures to the test. Today, I think I have a good understanding and a well-founded perspective on our unified faith because of him.

Diabolical wrote:

Yes, there are some He chooses in advance that will be greatly compelled to accept God. Perhaps even all of these will accept, but perhaps not all. But for all people we each have a genuine choice and God does give us the free will to accept His grace, even for the predestined, God will not force Himself on them. But He does not reject anyone who calls on His name. The Holy Spirit does not pick and choose for the Kingdom.

Why did this have to turn religious?!

purplepizza117 wrote:

"The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" Romans 1:19-20. There's also a brilliant verse, I can't quite remember it, determining that those who have never heard the name Jesus can still come to know the Kingdom of Heaven truly.

I know of what you speak. But of these, I still believe that they will be judged at the last judgement seat of God. However, this verse certainly can help others to understand why there were believers in God before chosen people were selected by Him. Abraham carried on a tradition handed down from Adam. And certainly, people walked with God and communed with Him. Melchizedek was a priest of God in Salem before the Holy laws were existent. He was in communion with God and he recognized that knowledge that God puts in all of us.

It is this same knowledge that God puts in all of mankind that gives people their basic sense of morality...that murder is wrong, than stealing is wrong, and so forth. We don't need the 10 Commandments to tell us that certain behaviors are contradictory to what is right. But with the law, it was put into practice as a formal set of dictates. But even Cain was called out for sin-rebellion against God when he killed Abel. From Adam on down, we all inherit the sin nature and that is our natural yet unnatural rebellion against God's authority over us.

Still, people will be judged based on how they lived because this indicates how they believed. Even Paul, when he went to Athens, preached at the Areopagus (called Mars Hill by the Romans) about the altar that was erected to the "Unknown God"...educating the Greeks about who it was that they were paying homage to in their ignorance. Here, in Acts 17:16-34, Paul would preach the Gospel to a group of people of whom most had no Jewish heritage. So they had no foundational infrastructure of the correct religious perspective upon which much of the early Church converts were based at the time. So Paul had to start from scratch, so to speak.

When Paul spoke this: "“People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. ²³ For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you." He was stating that, in spite of Romans 1:19-20, there is still ignorance which is why the Great Commission is so important.

Even if many people will be judged at the end solely based on the decisions they would have made had they been given the Gospel, how much more important and greater it would be for them if they WERE given the Gospel? Then they would not even have to face the last judgement. For any that we can reach that chooses to accept the free gift of salvation will never be judged! To them, like us, they will only receive great rewards at the Bema seat of Christ!

Accepting the gift of salvation negates even the chance of facing judgement and hell. And who could truly accept the Lord and then turn their back on him? I say NO ONE! So the more we reach for the Family of God and His Kingdom, the less will have to face the judgement where so many will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Still, of these, I say not all will receive the condemnation. Because they will have lived their life according to a good response to what God puts into their conscience to choose from.

purplepizza117 wrote:

We have similar histories, I went to a Christian school that was more or less nondenominational (i.e. they presented all doctrines and let us figure out which one we believed in, which I am quite thankful for) and I had a favourite teacher who would challenge us and help us out with our understanding of Scripture, God and our worldviews.

purplepizza117 wrote:

This is closer to what I was thinking, but I don't think God chooses any believers whatsoever. The great Christian leaders throughout the centuries have been driven not by divine intervention but their undying love for God. Take Mother Teresa (a topical subject). I don't think she was chosen by God to be a saint for the people of India, rather, she chose Him to set her life in.

The Calvinists think that Christians are all chosen by God specifically and that life-long non-Christians were rejected by God before they could've chosen. I don't believe that. However, I do believe that God does choose people that might not have come to the faith on their own. God called out Samuel by voice. God called Saul whom persecuted the Church. He later became Paul. God called Abram to father a chosen people and renamed him, also. God calls you and He calls me. However, I also think that God calls all of humanity. But not all will listen to Him. And not all will accept Him.

Here's something interesting. God named Adam, so Adam was known as that name for all time. But when God called some people, He would rename them. God puts meaning in a name. He will give us all new names in Heaven. And those of us who are pillars of the Kingdom will have his name stamped on our forehead. In Revelation 3:11-12, when referencing the Protestant Church of our era, God says to us "¹¹ I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name."

This is interesting because we will -- in essence -- have God's name and His Son's new name as well as the name of our new residence added to our own. We will forever be known unto all of creation as the people who share in God's name and of our savior's name. He will forever be a part of us. And this is even more intimate for the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation 14:1-5.

"14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. ² And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. ³ And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. ⁴ These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. ⁵ No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

These are the firstfruits of the faith, those that live purely for our savior. They have never known the touch of a woman, they have never been ones who would lie. In Heaven at Mount Zion, they will learn a new song that no one else will know. I've often thought of myself as one of these and that I would be special in Heaven. For I am a life-long virgin by choice and I have never told a lie....well, that used to be true.

This is why I'm not so sure anymore. Because I told a lie last year. My first since I was a child. But I was filled with guilt and so I confessed that lie and repented of it. Still, because of that, I may no longer qualify to be one of the special 144,000. But I hope I do, because there is no lie found in me now. And those 144,000 people will follow Jesus wherever He goes and that's what I want to do.

All the same, though I may be a virgin, I've decided to try to find a mate. Perhaps I will not be one of the 144,000 after all. I certainly desire the holy life. But I want to be married too and to have future little Diabolicals running around at my feet. This is a quandary for me. Because I desire the perfect life with Christ, but I desire also the touch of a woman. Which desire will win out in me? The Lord only knows.

I would very much like to hear your perspective on this, Purple.

#TL;DR

Quasi-duck wrote:

#TL;DR

Diabolical wrote:

Quasi-duck wrote:

#TL;DR

It wasn't written for you anyway.

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I thought people would grow out of religion. Guess they still live in chronicles of Narnia.

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Quasi-duck wrote:

Not A Communist wrote:

Quasi-duck wrote:

I have a joke, it isn't exactly political, but some of the stuff here isn't political either.

Q: What is the worlds best joke?

A: @oceanhawk

Quasi you absolute madman posting such a hilarious joke

Thanks, it is the much rumoured joke used in WWII against the Germans

Hilary can into space??

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Neither of us created this, but we found it really funny.

Defous wrote:

Defous wrote:

wow...sexist.

Would that she were pining over me...