Donk2.0 wrote:
Carking the 6th wrote:
Yes, rural CCCP sucked and life there was not easy. The government tried to hide it. But so is life in America for our homeless population (of which the USSR had none, even if in shitty housing, better than nothing at all) Appalachia and Alabama. Remember, at this same time the US suppressed many minorities and ruined lives in the red scare. Now,I’m not trying to use whataboutism, but it is likely that I’d Gorbachev had succeeded they would joke about the past just like us…You mentioned that the Soviet Union suppressed religion and culture. That is true. But they didn’t ban religion completely, allowing worship in private. Especially in Central Asia religiousness still existed. There is nothing to say about their suppression of minorities though, they literally attempted genocide lol. But remember, towards the end with Gorbachev things like this were getting unbanned. The USSR was starting to mellow out. This is sort of like Judging American for slavery and genocide of Native Americans and forgetting that the US improved in that regard (perhaps not enough, some would argue. Not gonna go there)
I could also argue that anecdotal evidence is not the best thing to judge a whole topic, but I never liked that argument. But still, you mention Poland again. This was one of the worst places to live in at the time. You made a decent point about rural Russia, but when I see rural Russians interviewed they all seem to prefer the Soviet times vastly over current ones. I think that’s more a testament to the collapse failure of a man Putin is, though. Contrary to your past point, it seemed that rather that people in places considered more important, like Moscow lived kinda normally. Cities the USSR wanted to show off? Better off. This has two sides, the propaganda and corruption one, but also along with their government for once providing some type of living standard in a place. Another thing is that the USSR allowed some types of elections, and although they ran unopposed, politicians would often be removed if enough people stood against them and didn’t vote.
I do not disagree with your belief that life in the Eastern bloc sucked, but rather your belief that it was “that bad,” as in a hellhole where no happiness, fulfillment or basic living could be found. I necessitate the reiterating of the fact that this was the largest country in the world, over about three generations of people. Things are bound to be different between places and people, and your family in Poland in only one look into life over there. During that Squidward video I showed, many Russian commenters spoke about how they preferred their life in the USSR over today. Does that mean it was an amazing place? No, but it wasn’t pure hell like it practically was in much of Poland. Take a more broad look, from different areas. It will lead to a conclusion that is more factual and meaningful than either of ours.
First point, no official homelessness. "However, this did not put an end to homelessness in the USSR and those who still struggled with homelessness were often labelled "parasites" for not being engaged in socially useful labour. Those homeless not on the street were kept in detention centres run by the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Soviet journalist Alexei Lebedev after living in the vagrant community in Moscow stated that there were "hundreds of thousands" of homeless in the USSR and that the homeless community's presence was becoming more noticeable in the later years of the USSR." It is true that at a minimum, they had access to basic things, unlike many in the US. Similar concept, however; if you don't work, you don't get a place to live.Second point, what you wrote here is true. Religion was never banned, however, it was definitely discouraged to the point that would have been considered a violation of freedom of worship in the West. Really, it depended on what religion it was. Far Eastern indigenous religions were certainly prosecuted alongside their respective cultures. Regarding genocide, it was committed successfully on an incredible scale. Look at the Crimean Tartars, they went from millions to being a minority in their own homeland. The atrocities committed there were so insane that even the Russians didn't want Crimea in the end, so it became part of the Ukrainian socialist republic. This is only one of many examples.Third point, As you stated, many Russians and Belorussians, when asked if they prefer life in the USSR or their modern country, will say that it was better before, and I agree with your reasoning why. I've watched videos(probably the same ones as you) of people answering why, and I think that one lady summarized it quite nicely. She said something along the lines of "Before, we didn't have much on store shelves, but we could at least get what there was, now, there's a lot of stuff on the shelves, but we can't afford it". This can be mainly attributed to the failure of the Russian economy in post soviet times. In Russia particularly, when the economy was moving away from state-controlled to private, a small group of people (the oligarchs) took overwhelming control of many industries, and they got so much power that they now have significant influence over the government. In the developed capitalist economies of the West, this is called a monopoly, in Russia, it is just how it works. Oligharcs, with their near limitless control over the government, don't have to work hard to prevent wealth from trickling down to the lower classes. On top of that, they have a government that alienates itself from the rest of the world. Since the mid-2000s, Russia and other members of the CSTO have been intentionally distancing themselves from the rest of the developed world. Russia, being a country dependent on imports and exports, naturally suffers from this. The main reason why, however, is how the people in Russia justify their suffering. Back in the soviet era, life was hard, people didn't have the right to free speech, and they faced many other difficulties, but it was all justified by the power of the state. In return for their hardships, the Russians(and others) felt that they got a country that the rest of the world feared, a global superpower, the USSR. Who cares if your diet results in malnutrition and vitamin deficiency if you can be called a citizen of the Soviet Union... the most powerful country in the world! Now, in modern days, what do they get? Putin, an idiot(many people realize this by now) and a country that increasingly embarrasses itself on the world stage and distances itself from everyone else. There's still no free speech(in practice, in theory, there is) and life for the lower classes in rural areas has only increased minimally. You're right on this one, and I commend you on it.
Fourth Point, I think you've misinterpreted what I've been saying. Contrary to what you think I've been leading you to believe, I think that life was, at least in the social aspect, better than in the US. My primary argument is that, in terms of economics and in personal rights and freedoms, the West was EXPONENTIALLY better. In the hellhole that was the Eastern Bloc, people joined together and helped each other out where needed. Never before or after that era did strangers consider themselves as close as they did in that time. Everyone understood how bad everyone else had it, and they didn't hesitate to help each other out. It's kind of similar to how people who undergo a traumatic event together are almost like bonded for life. It was like that with entire countries of people back then. People were kind to each other in a unique way. What I'm saying isn't that that wasn't the case, what I'm saying is that this traumatic event (soviet socialism) shouldn't have happened like it did in the first place. The Eastern Bloc was an entire half of the world that was, together, oppressed by their own leaders. What happened there isn't right. Thats what I'm trying to argue.
Sorry for the late response. I've been writing this in my free time while balancing CoW and a whole bunch of other stuff, so I apologize. @K.Rokossovski if you'd be willing to share, I'd love to hear some more about your visits to Russia. I've really loved this discussion thus far, and I really want to continue it. I've learned a lot here, and I hope you two can take something away from what I've written too. (btw, my family was upper-middle class, in a decently rich city in Poland, so even if life was better in the actual USSR(which I have evidence to prove otherwise) they would probably still fit it pretty well). Either way, that close connection, that friendship and mutual bond is something that we probably won't see ever again. That was something magical in human nature, something special.
