Tactics, Stacking

DxC wrote:

The best players don't have great ratios.

There are a lot of different ways to parse the stats, but I've generally gotten a pretty accurate picture of the player's quality of game play and their anticipated tactics by analyzing them.

Also, I am cognizant of the fact that we have now hijacked Water Is Wet's thread about stack-building and tactics with smack talk and an unrelated discussion about player ratings. I would be happy to remove my comments on these topics to another thread, and we can argue about the merits of ratings, ratios and other statistics and their implications for a particular gamer's quality of play -- without further disrupting this thread.

MontanaBB wrote:

MihailMD wrote:

@MontanaBB , why don't you challenge yourself in Player's League?

That time will come, sir.

My style of play requires a lot of battle micro-management. (Some might argue almost obsessive micro-management.) It's one of the keys to my high kills-to-losses ratios. Micro-management requires a lot of free time, which I have less of now than I did. When I launch into something like Player's League, I want to give you boys my best game. But, yeah, it's something I've wanted to do for a long while.

But on the topic at hand: Yeah, I prefer having artillery in units that are behind the lines. Artillery doesn't have much health, and are basically useless at point blank range. This goes for all artillery, but non-SPG artillery is especially vulnerable. Keep them behind the lines, but most importantly, keep giving them targets to shoot at, unless you have High Command and have access to fire control.

But yeah, really need to get back into the game... Good to see someone actually made a chart for SBDE, though! I've been skeptical of it because of my lack of experience with it, but at least I'll have something to go by(... Now that I think about it, I usually don't PUT that many units into one stack anyway... usually 3 or 4 does me well enough in the early and mid game, which is pretty much all I have gotten to in the past several months when I have played.)

Arty has two main vulnerabilities:

- Attack from the air. This can be alleviated by adding AA (and again, LOTS of it) and cannon fodder (like inf), to soak up hit points

- ground attack, usually by fast units like light tanks, that have found some way to the arty. Careful manoever is required, but still this may fail you sometimes. The main idea against this is to have the arty behind a "shielding unit" of infantry and AT. Whenever the arty marches forward to get in range of some target, the shielding units moves up just a bit further.

But when you are offline for a long time (and yes sleeping usually counts as "a long time"), it never hurts to add some AT to an arty stack just in case.

Myself, I only break up arty stacks (on the same front) when they are over the SBDE limit, but that's preference rather than best practice.

INFANTRY: Infantry or mech infantry is useful for attacking on building terrain. Hit points for tanks in building terrain is half of full strength which can make your tanks more vulnerable when fighting on building terrain (which seem to be the original capital provinces at the start of the game). Infantry and/or militia can be useful for babysitting a recently conquered province till the revolt risk is 0 or near zero without troops. If morale is 25, it is best to try moving the troops away and click on the cities "i" and check for revolt risk. If revolt risk isn't listed, it is also 0.

The main advantage of infantry and militia are that they don't use oil as previously stated. They are also cheap to produce. They can also be used to slow down an attacking army.

Water_Is_Wet wrote:

So, I want to maximize my potential in games, and I want to know from the community what to do/ change in my tactics / stacking. I usually do something like this-

Light tank/medium tank stacks with 5-7 each

Artillery stacks with 3 each

Plane stacks- 5 bombers and 5 fighters per stack

I only ever mix troops for the plane stacks - I always separate units. Light tanks in their own stack, arty in their own, medium tanks in their own, etc.

I don't use much AA or infantry troops in general, idk if that is bad.

So, my questions are;

Are these stacks okay? Can I add more to them, or change them up?

Should I mix troops in my stacks?

Are there any other troops I could use more?

Any tips in general for stacking, attacks, artillery, etc. would be great!

Just my 2 cents here as @MontanaBB has already made good points.

- Always remember state based damage efficiency. Always.

- AAA with tanks is great, but slows them down. Use self propelled AAA instead.

- Mix fighters with bombers is great, but only for attacking, which itself is not the best thing to do. Rather, patrol with the two stacks separate.

5 fighters covering 5 bombers which are all patrolling is better than attacking the units. Also, don't forget every 14 minutes to slightly change the fighter's positions, so that it never actually attempts to attack ground targets. This way, you will 1) deal damage to ennemy ground troops with your bombers with more efficiency without taking in damage because of your fighters.

Another advantage is that the bombers will possibly act as baits. So while your bombers are possibly being attacked, your fighters will deal damage to the incoming attacking planes without taking any damage back. Then send your surviving bombers to attack the refuelling fighters and destroy them. Pretty efficient.

- Stacks of 5/7 tanks are not bad. But that denies them some of their advantages. What's the point of sending 5 tanks in one province when you can send your 5 tanks in 5 different provinces? Clearly light tanks are not ready to face air or anti tanks attacks, so why bother stack them when your losses will be enormous? Send them absolutely everywhere in different stacks. Sure, some will die, but then again so will your stack of 5.

- Artillery is really great. Don't be scared to stack 9 of them if you have a big battle at range. (By big battle I mean 20 units on each side fighting for a city, which they will take a long time to win, therefore giving your artillery a long time to bombard.) Never forget regular AAA with artillery btw.

@Water_Is_Wet

all these great tactics @darksoul111, why were you eliminated so early in the players league?))

Is it because they only work on AI?))

There is no shame in getting eliminated early. If you get gang banged on day 3 by halfway competent players the best player would have a hard time defending it. The only shame is not playing PL

DxC wrote:

There is no shame in getting eliminated early. If you get gang banged on day 3 by halfway competent players the best player would have a hard time defending it. The only shame is not playing PL

And somewhat with the first ..))

I didn't know I'd get betrayed first week by what I considered my best ally @MihailMD

ready for some revenge?

betrayed by ally? )))) is in not a bit too far ? ))) I honestly do not remember being allied to you in the last round. Were you a part of USSR?

I am always ready . bring it... get mods to open the map for start

darksoul111 wrote:

Just my 2 cents here as @MontanaBB has already made good points.

- Always remember state based damage efficiency. Always.

- AAA with tanks is great, but slows them down. Use self propelled AAA instead.

- Mix fighters with bombers is great, but only for attacking, which itself is not the best thing to do. Rather, patrol with the two stacks separate.

5 fighters covering 5 bombers which are all patrolling is better than attacking the units. Also, don't forget every 14 minutes to slightly change the fighter's positions, so that it never actually attempts to attack ground targets. This way, you will 1) deal damage to ennemy ground troops with your bombers with more efficiency without taking in damage because of your fighters.

Another advantage is that the bombers will possibly act as baits. So while your bombers are possibly being attacked, your fighters will deal damage to the incoming attacking planes without taking any damage back. Then send your surviving bombers to attack the refuelling fighters and destroy them. Pretty efficient.

- Stacks of 5/7 tanks are not bad. But that denies them some of their advantages. What's the point of sending 5 tanks in one province when you can send your 5 tanks in 5 different provinces? Clearly light tanks are not ready to face air or anti tanks attacks, so why bother stack them when your losses will be enormous? Send them absolutely everywhere in different stacks. Sure, some will die, but then again so will your stack of 5.

- Artillery is really great. Don't be scared to stack 9 of them if you have a big battle at range. (By big battle I mean 20 units on each side fighting for a city, which they will take a long time to win, therefore giving your artillery a long time to bombard.) Never forget regular AAA with artillery btw.

@Water_Is_Wet

If it is a non-core province and players starting with about equal resources, the person can often kill the single tank without taking any losses. So the defender could win tank battles, tanks 3-0; 2-1,1-1. If the defender has surviving tanks and can safety withdraw to a high morale area and rest them, then the single tank attacks could be taking significant tank losses. Over time, the person fielding larger tank stacks will gain an ever larger tank advantage if other things start out equal. Each player able to field same number and type of units per day.

If single tank attacker persists in attacking with one tank attacks and loses 1 more tank per day than the defender, than that is a gain of 10 tanks for defender. Much defends on how many tanks each player starts with and how many tanks each side can produce per day. (NOTES: You also need air cover if your opponent has started producing air units.)

If single tanks are taking non-core provinces,

For example, with players of about same skill level and equal everything at start:

Attacker and defender each start with 10 tanks of same type and levels.

Each can produce 2 tanks per day.

Single tank attacker loses 2 tanks per day. Defender loses 1 tank per day. (Actual ratios between two players could vary a lot). (Actual net losses per day could vary too)

After 10 days of attacks, single tank attacker has 10 tanks. Defender has 10 tanks + 5 from production that weren't destroyed. Defender now already has 15 tanks to 10 tanks.

After 20 days of attack, defender could have 20 tanks to 10 tanks. How many have decent morale/hit points at any given time can vary a lot and is a key factor. As defender's number of tanks fit for combat increases so does the defenders prospects. Again this is to develop TANK theory. In an actual game, players usually don't have equal amounts of everything at start of combat.

NOTES: Defender will have some number of tanks resting (healing morale/hit points). Hopefully in a safe area.

If attacker doesn't rest his tanks, attacker could also be at a hit point disadvantage. That would give lower efficiency.

SINGLE TANK ATTACKS; They can work well if the opponent doesn't have tanks researched yet, if the defender has fewer tanks or defender doesn't have enough tanks in the area being attacked. Single tank attacks can reduce morale of defending cities.

A key tactical piece is to find out what the defender has in the defending stack/area as quickly as possible. if this can be determined, it can be a huge advantage. You can have multipe attacking armies which can support each other.

In the long run, tactics that give you a higher kill ratio in a one-on-one with a human, can guide your tactics.

EXCEPTIONS: If tanks are attacking infantry positions, single tanks could cause a lot of damage to enemy (troops and/or buildings and morale. if your tank levels are higher than your opponents, you also have a better chance of losing few tanks and having a high kill ratio.

RESEARCH; Research is key. Light tanks must be researched as high as you can and have a high priority. Medium and heavy tanks.

ECONOMY: You need a strong economy to do reasearch, do upgrades and support your troops.

TANKS: In genera, it is better to have a higher tank kill ratio than your opponent. The player that fields stacks that get a higher kill ratio gains a tactical advantage if tanks are being produced about equally. That is the reason it is important to understand the effectiveness of mixed stacks against same unit type stacks. That goes for other types of units as well.

MIXED TANK stacks are usually superior to a SINGE TANK type stack of the same size. This because the type TANK condition has to drop to zero to lose the tank. With two mixed versus two of same type, each of the mixed units has to drop to zero to be killed. If you have two same type units, the tanks only have to take 50% damage to lose of one the tanks.

MIXED 2 TANK stack vs SINGLE TANK stack: This is even stronger tactic than the 2 of SAME TANK vs 1 TANK.

TANK BATTLES: I'm currently battling a human employing the SINGLE TANK strategy. I'm employing MIXED TANK stacks against his single tanks. I also have air superiority. So my fighters and tactical bombers damage some of his attacking SINGLE TANK armies before they even reach my province centers. I take out his fighters and tactical bombers. He is gaining non-core provinces. I'm taking his core provinces. His average province morale is dropping while mine is rising.

i can hit his core provinces. My core provinces are more distant. So he would have a very long supply line to even hit at my core provinces. When I started the war, I took core provinces, which gave me a core province advantage. Even if he retakes a province, it has lower morale (lower resource production) when he retakes it. The core province ratio is one indicator of how the war is trending. It started at 22:22 (1:1). It is now 22:16 (1.375:1). So the war is favoring me. This is one indicator of how a war is going. Another is the overall morale trend of the waring countries. Non-core provinces produce 1/4 as much with same morale and often the morale of non-cores is lower. So a core with 100 morale is worth 100. A non-core with 100 morale is worh 25. So one core province is usually worth more than 4 or more non-core provinces.

I am heading towards capturing or damaging his core oil provinces. Capturing a core oil province would greatly increase my oil advantage. With more oil than him, I can do more research requiring oil and produce more unit types requiring oil like armor and air. I'm also improving resource buildings in core oil proviinces which increase my oil production. My core oil province morale is 98% plus 1/4 (6 non-core oil provinces) to his core oil provinces of 65% and 57% (worth 112). He has two core oil provinces.

TANK STRATEGY: Attack an opponent's core provinces before the opponent can produce large numbers of tanks. If you can his core oil provinces in the initial attack even better. You should have tank producing provinces already producing tanks to repace any losses you may take. It helps to have a number of tanks already built too. It can take a while for the replacement tanks to be produced. You want to constantly pumping out tanks and any other units you need.

TANK TACTICS: Capture or damage his core OIL producing provinces. If you capture his OIL producing provinces, you deprive the opponent of part his oil. That reduces the opponent's abiltiy to do research that needs oil and the ability to produce units that require oil to build and maintain. Single resource CORE provinces with same morale are worth 4 non-core provinces producing the same single resource.

MIXED TANK ATTACKS VS. SINGLE TANKS: In core provinces, I now lead 22:9. 5 MIXED TANK attacking armies creaming the single tanks. Decreased from 22:16 to 22:9. One of his two oil fields is being attacked by two mixed tank stacks. He has two tanks defending. Very few causalities as I blitz with my 5 MIXED TANK stacks. My infantry unit types can't keep up with garrisoning to reduce rebelion risk. Taking or damaging the oil field reduces his capacity to research units that require oli and to build tanks. Taking away provinces also reduces places where he can even build tanks before they get overrun by the oncoming MIXED TANKS.

TANK STRATEGY OBJECTIVE: Capture the core oil . REASON: Deprive opponent of the oil production. Also gives a small incease to your oil production.

3rd MIXED TANK stack attacking from 3rd direction. The two single tanks defending the oil field aren't even stacked. His core oil field will fall.

You have to adjust your stacks as new unit types become available. It also depends on what your enemies are researching and fielding. Sometimes you can hit an enemy's core provinces before they have researched tanks. This can delay their research and deployment of tanks. Intel on what the enemy is defending with is very helpful. Sometimes you can blitz with tanks. Other times you have tank stacks or anti-tank stacks to deal with. If the player has air units, you have to adjust your play depending on how many air units and their type. Sometimes you can have been quality stacks. Other times numerical superiority or a mix of quality and numerical superiority.

I have found that the best thing to do is to have seven types of stacks

Armored: 3 light tanks, 2 motorized infantry, two sp anti air, a heavy tank and two medium tanks

Infantry: 4 infantry, 2 militia, 2 antitank, 4 antiair

commandos: 8 commandos

Paratroopers: 8 paratroopers

Artillery: 8 sp artillery and 4 sp anti air, or 8 artillery, and 4 anti air

naval: 8 subs, 8 destroyers, 5 cruisers, 3 battleships, 2 carriers, and a ratio of naval bombers to interceptors of 1-2

air: 6 interceptors 4 tac bomber or 6 interceptors and 3 strategic bombers

Bobvictorous wrote:

I have found that the best thing to do is to have seven types of stacks

Armored: 3 light tanks, 2 motorized infantry, two sp anti air, a heavy tank and two medium tanks

Infantry: 4 infantry, 2 militia, 2 antitank, 4 antiair

commandos: 8 commandos

Paratroopers: 8 paratroopers

Artillery: 8 sp artillery and 4 sp anti air, or 8 artillery, and 4 anti air

naval: 8 subs, 8 destroyers, 5 cruisers, 3 battleships, 2 carriers, and a ratio of naval bombers to interceptors of 1-2

air: 6 interceptors 4 tac bomber or 6 interceptors and 3 strategic bombers

Just a question:

1. what will be the difference if you have 8 commandos and 7? Only the power is different. But, would 9 be better? The numbers of commandos you send shouldn't be 8 because you normally will not have that much unless you played to like Day 60. Same for paratroopers
2. Armored Vehicle: Would it be better if you actually add some faster units? Because Heavy/Medium Tanks are too slow.
3. Artillery: Can you get that much? Would it be better if you separate it so you can cover a larger area?
4. Air: Completely agree
5. Naval: Still thinking...

Any ideas or suggestions

in answer to your first questions, the main reason for the numbers i put up was to optimist speed and damage efficiency

for second question it depends on your goals like if you are invading the soviet union, and you need speed to take the land before he can make enough troops to stop you, then you probably should just send the light tanks SP anti-air and mot infantry although i would say you should probably increase the amount of light tanks to 6, third although you can cover less area with the artillery, you can wipe out larger stacks rather quickly, although it takes a while to get that many, in a game i am playing now i currently have 6 stacks of 8 artillery, for the navy it really depends on what your opponent has, if he has alot of battleships, and nothing else for example, then just throw a bunch of subs at him, because the expensive battleships will sink very quickly

So what I like to do is have 2 tank destroyers (or 4 AA), 2 medium tanks, 2 light tanks, 2 sp AA (or 6 regular AA) 4 motorized infantry, 5 artillery (or 2 sp artillery), and then 2 commandos. These are my basic land troop formations, and to enlarge it I use that ratio, as long as the SBDE is 100%. Now I used to not like SP stuff, I just used tanks, AT, AA, infantry, sometimes motorised infantry, and stuff like that, but when my friend was beating me a lot in alliance games, I noticed he used SP stuff, and motorised infantry, so I kind of made up this basic land formation ratio. Also, for bombers, I do 5 fighters (or 2 rocket fighters), and 5 tac bombers. For ships I do 3 battleships, 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers, and 5 subs. And then I use rockets for strategic warfare a lot, like if I'm at war with a country that has a lot of forts, or shares a water border with me. I will also build railroad guns for water border countries I'm at war with. I hope this helped, and also let me know if I'm doing something wrong, cause my friend beats me a lot in these games, and I want to get back at him. Thanks!