Realistic WW2 Game # 3 Invite

GAME START INFO:

Start Time:

asap

1939 map, 10 player, Free Choice

Game Name:

AXIS vs ALLIES 3

Password:

Will be sent upon game creation

ALLIES:

U.K.- KC Overlord

U.S.A. – probably ‘China.mike’ The U.S. player activates Dec 11, 1941.

France - Sgt. Rock

Soviet – john pete1

AXIS:

Italy- rogodeterSnowl

Germany – James Hartmund

Yugoslavia - ? ? ? The Yugo player will come in later.

James Hartmund will play AXIS

Pro-AXIS:

Spain – ? ? ? The Spanish player will come in later *Note that Spain is Neutral, but plays 8 regiments against the Soviets (without officially being at war).

Turkey- ? ? ? If activated, the Turkish player will come in later

Neutral:

Sweden – Floki2 *Note that the Swedish player plays plays Hungary & Slovakia & 4 defensive regiments [in Finland] (without officially being at war).

Interested Players: Patfan76, Sphere, DoLhades

VICHY FRANCE

FRENCH PROBLEMS

Historic Reasons:

1. It was clear that French military forces were overwhelmed and that military collapse was imminent. France’s best and most modern French armies had been sent north and lost in the resulting encirclement.

2. Government and military leaders, deeply shocked by the debacle.

3. Weygand lacked the reserves to counter a breakthrough or to replace front line troops, 4. Low morale of French Leaders

Where:

Lyon, France's second-largest city, would have been a more logical choice butmayorÉdouard Herriotwas too associated with the Third Republic. Marseilles had a reputation as the dangerous "Chicago" of France. Toulouse was too remote and had a left-wing reputation. Vichy was centrally located and had many hotels for ministers to use.

Terms:

1. Germany kept 2 million French soldiersin Germany as prisoners doing forced laboras hostages to ensure

2. French Army disbands.

3. Army Reduced. Remaining troops:

Vichy French Metropolitan Army

Reduced to 100,000 (to maintain domestic order).

Anti-aircraft force of 10,000 men.

All volunteers.

Deprived of tanks and other armored vehicles.

Had cavalry units.

Vichy French colonial forces

Reduced in accordance with the terms of the Armistice.

In the Mediterranean area alone, Vichy had nearly a 150,000 men under arms.

4. France had to pay the occupation costs of the German troops. This was 20 million Reichmarks per day, paid at the artificial rate of twenty francs to the Mark, 50 times the actual costs of the occupation garrison.

5. Had to pay a heavy tribute in gold, food, and supplies to Germany.

The greater part of the overseas French colonieswere originally under Vichy control.

6. French Navy is taken out of the war.

7. Troops kept in Syria.

Notes:

Low morale of French Leaders

Churchill asked General Gamelin, Where is the strategic reserve? "There is none" Gamelin replied. Wegand said “Weygand now asserted it would not take long for the French Army to disintegrate.”

Maginot Swiss border and the Maginot defences were cut off from the rest of France. Most units surrendered on 25 June, and the Germans claimed to have taken 500,000 prisoners.

Of the 58 major fortifications on the Maginot Line, just 10 were captured by the Wehrmacht in battle.

Your comments on the creation of a Vichy France are welcome. The establishment of a Vichy Protectorate is complicated. Remember that most French players will not wish to go Vichy and will give reasons why they should not.

Please be historically based if you respond.

thats a lot of text.

I would suggest and individual reply in this thread for each of the 10 countries involved clearly setting out the rules for each. Then these can be edited as an when required.

GAME START INFO:

Start Time:

Sunday, Dec. 13 at 4:00 PM, Central Standard Time (11:00 PM, GMT).

if everyone checks in Tomorrow Dec. 12 at 4:00 PM, Central Standard Time (11PM, GMT).

Password:

Will be sent upon game creation

cool, did you get my application for yugoslavia? Also im abit confused about the restrictions on yugoslavia

Sir ellio and those that are interested,

Straight talk- the Yugoslavians (who are substituted for the Romanians that should be in the game), as well as Spain, Turkey, and for Sweden (for about 1/2 their military might), should be extremely limited. Allow me to explain. These 'minors' made little in the way of their own military hardware. Small arms, yes, but artillery, planes, tanks and even armored cars, not at all. Feel free to check the net for the details.

Therefore in our games, and in history, the minors can only make and upgrade militia, other than their starting troops. That is harsh truth. The only exception to that is Sweden, that has very good infantry, made the Bofors ant-aircraft guns and exported them, a very good fighter (like a P-51), plus an equivalent to a BT-7 looking tank used until 1942. In other words, the minors only bought their military equipment from others (Germany, Britain, Russia, France & the U.S.). Anything else is just playing a Risk-like fantasy game. We did not know the extent of them being this research & equipment poor until the in-depth research.

ALSO, the minors didn't have or make much money and were generally out of $ and low on resources. 1939 was the tail-end of a world-wide depression, and these minors were no exception. They should give most of their $ to a neutral player; we're using the Swedes for that.

So to recap:

1. Minors may only make & upgrade militia. This assumes that they can make & upgreade all the rifles, pistols, grenades, small-type mortars, demolition packs, Molotov cocktails, etc. themselves (small-arms).

2. They may however purchase equipment from other countries (Germany, Britain, France, Russia- and later the U.S.A. [Sweden for AAA].

3. The minors start with a various very low initial money levels. Most $ is given to Sweden at the start. Italy starts with almost no oil.

Below I'll put a smattering of facts I gleaned from the net about GDP & the minor's equipment. It's a LOT, so only read it if you're a history buff type person.

Beginning of war yearly nation GDPs.

(1)United States: 84.7 billion

(2) Germany: 46.0 billion*

(3) UK: 27.51 billion

(4) USSR: 23.02 billion

(5) France: 16.18 billion

(6) Italy: 8.68 billion

(7) Japan: 7.49 billion

Bulgaria: 0.65 billion

Hungary: 1.45 billion

Poland: 4.63 billion

Romania: 1.67 billion

Yugoslavia: 1.69 billion

Estimated GDP's of others

Sweden: 3.15 billion (assumed per capita income of British/German level, 500 dollars)

Spain: 2.53 billion (assumed per capita income of Bulgarian level, 100 dollars)

CoW Minors Information

SPAIN:

1. Estimated 25K’ish $.

2. Troops types available:

At the end of the Second World War, the Spanish Army counted 325,000 soldiers. The equipment dated from the Civil War, with some systems produced in Germany during the World War. Doctrine and Training were obsolete, as they had not incorporated the teachings of the Second World War.

Nationalists (German and Italian) - Savoia-Machett 81s

Rifles- K98, Fucile 1891

Machine guns-MG34

Monoplanes -JU 87, BF 109

Light tanks-Pz I, II

Able to produce & upgradable: Militia.

TURKEY:

In 1938 the Turkish standing army had 194 000 men. 60 infantry, 6 mountain, 21 cav, 8 reserve cav, 20 field arty, 10 heavy artiy, and 7 fortress arty). In early 1941 Turkey established, 43 divisions and three independent inf brigades, 2 divisions and one independent cavalry bde, as well as 2 mech divs. The armed forces were poorly equipped; weapons shipments from Germany, Great Britain, and U.S. did little to improve that condition. Just before the onset of hostilities the Turkish navy underwent a program of expansion and modernization; 2 subs were ordered for construction in Germany, 2 subs and 4 DDs were ordered for construction in U.K. Lesser vessels were also constructed in home shipyards. After Germany delivered one sub in 1939, the Turkish navy contained 19 naval vessels and they included one armored ship, 1 line cruiser, 2 lt cruisers, 2 tp-boats, 4 DDs, 5 subs, and 5 other lesser ships (most obsolete);. The real combat value of the navy was insignificant. By the end of WWII, the navy had one battle cruiser, two cruisers, 8 DDs, 12 subs. By 1940 the Turkish air force was composed of 4 air regiments and had in possession a total of 370 aircraft. Thanks to British and French shipments one more air regiment, along with five independent air wings, was formed in 1941. Shipments of military equipment from Germany replaced the shipments from Allied countries in the same year. Close to the end of the war, two air force divisions were organized; they together contained 15 air wings.

Able to produce & upgradable: Militia.

YUGOSLAVIA (substituted for Romania- 686,258 men under arms in the summer of 1941 and a total of 1,224,691 men in the summer of 1944 that SHOULD be in the scenario

Serbian Yugoslav monarchy

Regent Prince Paul personally sympathized with the Western Allies.

Attempted at establishing a friendly stance with Germany and Italy

Yugoslavia was reluctantly pressured into joining the Axis alliance, and it prompted mass demonstrations and an overthrow of the regency.

Arms by April, 1941

Army:

28 inf divisions, 3 cav divisions, and 35 independent regiments. (Each had 1-3 inf regiments and 1-3 arty bns.

About 1,200,000

Royal Yugoslav Army was still largely equipped with weapons and material from WW1

Artillery:

4,000 artillery pieces (800 modern).

6 motorized artillery regiments

812 Czech37mmand 47mmanti-tank guns.

2,300 mortars including 1600 modern 81mm pieces, as well as twenty four 220 and 305mm pieces

6 motorized infantry battalions in the 3 cavalry divisions.

Armor:

2 tank battalions equipped with 110 tanks, 1 of which had Renault FTmodels of WW 1 origin and the other 54 modern French Renault R35tanks, plus an independent tank company with 8 Czech SI-Dtank destroyers.

1,000 trucks for military purposes had been imported from the United States of Americain the months just preceding the invasion

Commando:

3 organized as "alpine" units.

Air Force 1 anti-aircraft arty.

3 brigades with a total of 14 bomber, eight fighter flights.

Aircraft strength was estimated at 500 with a further 300 reserve and training aircraft. These totals included 30 Italian Savoia-Marchetti bombers, 70 Dornier Do 17Ks and50 Bristol Blenheims.

[b]73 fighters[/b] were German Bf 109Es (although only 46 were serviceable when war broke out) and 40 were Hurricanes.

Navy:

1 training cruiser

6 DDs

2 Subs

SWEDEN:

The Bofors 40 mm, a Swedish auto cannon, was exported to most warring countries in thousands of examples, making it the most common anti-aircraft weapon of the war.

Tanks:

Stridsvagn L-60 (215 total)

Strv m/42 (342 total- Nov. 1941)

Both made at Landsverk, 102 at Volvo (Landskrona, Sweden)

Planes: J 22 fighters (1943)

Able to produce & upgradable: Infantry, Militia & AAA. Tanks, fighters & AT-regiments in limited numbers.

So i can only produce militia and have to buy everything else then. That's going to be interesting

Question

how much can mightly soviet ruskia build ?

and how much, and to wot tech level

~

~ Sorry folks a CoW glitch forced me to post that long article twice just now ~

In Reply to john pete1 concerning Russian restrictions:

There has been some minor thought given to any proposed Russian restrictions to research. The thoughts were that Russia starts behind in a few areas as it is, and what they lack in quality they make up for in quantity. For example their starting manpower is scarcely any larger than Germany's, and it should be many times more- you've seen the Enemy at the Gates movie. It could therefore be seen as an armored regiment in a panzer division having 250'ish tanks at full strength, whereas a Russian regiment would have many times more tanks. The restriction might be built into the game. Otherwise I've never seen the Russian starting restrictions but I imagine that it was right on. They had the T-34 in the works (the massive KV's already), good 122 & 152 artillery, good plans for Lavochkins, MIGs & Yaks going at the games start (or soon thereafter), Katyushas in 1939, Pe-2s prototypes out in 1939 & Sturmoviks on the way. In other words, and in my opinion, they should be up to snuff because of good 'enough' designs and massive production (numbers).

As far as straight armored regiment numbers goes, the USSR should have a ton of tanks- way more than they start with. However we mustn't forget their poor armor theory, their armor dispersed into the Army Corps (like the French), the initiative curtailing 1930's officer purges, that maintenance and readiness standards were very poor; ammunition and radios were in short supply, and many units lacked the trucks needed for resupply beyond their basic fuel and ammunition loads and there was little to no Russian tank recovery equipment.

Now their ships were another story altogether. I would hope that CoW has restricted their ships & subs to 1920s & 30s antiquated vessels.

As always, any one's opinions are welcome

I want to thank everyone for playing in this game. Most of the players were very good sports about the historical unit, date, troop type & research limitations.