I would like to suggest about the long-ranged units of arty and aircraft units how much they are devastating in the cow game itself. Most of the battles are being decided mainly with those units and moreover the battles are pretty much being defeated decisively as obliterating the enemy with very less casualties which is not very realistic, well it happened in some cases of ww2 but very rare.
So, I only want to request the change in mechanic of their damage efficiency to reduce as the health of opposing enemy reduced, which means if the artillery can inflict damage hitpoints of 10 then it will inflict 100% damage on the 100%full health units for 1st round of shell and for 2nd time, by reducing some efficiency, will inflict only 80% or 90% damage on 90% health(hitpoints) enemy and so on. Even they continue to bombard the enemy until wiping out, the damage efficiency should be close to 0% to kill the dying unit with 10%health(hitpoint) preventing the elimination of the unit. This should be the same for Tactical and Strats bombers but not Attack bombers and Fighters as they should have better precision on targeting the enemy. And if the damage efficiency keep reducing it will be taking longer and longer and harder and harder for range units to kill the enemy. (Just like the mechanic of lowering damage of deceasing-health units but that will be the opposite one of this mechanic)
Then, at least artillery and aircraft which are supposed to battlefield supporting units won't be become the main element of the main deciding factor for the outcome of the battle and this setting will also see the increase in more use of infantry and tanks which is supposed to the main frontlines unit or breakthrough units.
(I am sorry if this idea is already suggested)
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114 Replies
21 Jul 2022, 03:19
freezy wrote:
In our other game S1914 it is actually already the case that the lower numbers and HP a unit has, the higher chances it has to survive combat ticks. There it is called "last stand" mechanic by the community. But that is only an unintended side effect due to an old combat system we use in that game. Players actually hate this and often report it as a bug, so we will fix and change it soon there. So I am very much against deliberately implementing this in CoW.
That's fair.
freezy wrote:
So maybe after all just doing some regular balancing changes is the way to go. We actually have already some small tweaks lined up for the update early August, which make ranged weapons and tac/strat bomber a bit more expensive because they are harder to kill. Good that this thread confirms the direction.
Maybe just a range nerf instead? With the current 50km range and the ms penalty, it's just almost impossible for melee units to make contact with artys if they shoot n scoot. It's shoot n scoot that makes artys op and I think directly nerfing it rather than the unit is more effective.
For planes, maybe in addition to the cost increase, also buff aa. Currently, aa's are passive defensive units. Their entire existence is anchored on the idea of killing planes but since they're melee and def oriented, they can only do so if the enemy planes banzai themselves into aa's - they don't really kill planes, planes kill themselves.
I was thinking of giving them range and better offensive values versus planes. With this, they're no longer just a passive deterrent that planes could just easily ignore but an active threat. With this, they could now actually fulfill their purpose of killing planes by shooting them down rather than just sitting there, praying that the other guy's power get cut off so his planes for once actually ticks on you're aa-strapped stack.
21 Jul 2022, 08:16
Suna232 wrote:
Chet Zwe Han wrote:
Have you ever not seen players using arty or planes destroying countries while inflicting over ten thousands or even hundred thousands casualties which in return lost only hundred or even none.
No, I actually never witnessed a real Player vs Player war that finished like that. That is possible only if Player is not active at all or against island AI while using navy.After few airstrikes you will reach almost a 1000 casualties for yourself without enemy having to attack you.
If enemy is attacking with artillery with some buffer units in front you should do next:
*if no aa protection use airstrikes
*if in reach of naval units, attack from sea
*if no other option is left,engage in melee combat with buffer units, provide artillery and air support and expect from enemy to do the same. If you paid enough attention on terrain and doctrine bonuses aswell as units difference between you and your enemy you will be able to win conflict.
War is nothing more then a very tricky mind game, you and your enemy trying to overthink one another.
If you do not have aa/air support/artillery on your side and you get overpowered by someone who does. It doesn't mean that those unita are OP,it just means they are necessity and you made a mistake by avoiding use of them.
I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
知己知彼，百战不殆
21 Jul 2022, 10:44
Suna232 wrote:
freezy wrote:
If you want a mechanics change for artillery or bombers, I would rather give them the "friendly fire" feature, cos after all you wouldnt fire artillery into an area where your own units are fighting. But it would also be a rather drastic change to the current gameplay.
So maybe after all just doing some regular balancing changes is the way to go. We actually have already some small tweaks lined up for the update early August, which make ranged weapons and tac/strat bomber a bit more expensive because they are harder to kill. Good that this thread confirms the direction.
I do not agree that it would be solution. Players who are complaining are complaining because of ability of artillery to kill unit without having need of close range battle.Correct way (and the most realistic one) is artillery acting as a support for long lasting semi close range battles and head to head collision are resemblance of that kind of combat.
I believe people need to improve and change their play style and not to see everything as an issue. However I low key agree that artillery(navy, airforce) shouldn't be able to finish of units without close combat.
I have two suggestions :
1.
When capturing empty enemy's province to always reduce small % of health from unit(s) that captured it (this will resemble resistance of any remaining soliders and gorila warfare)
2.
When unit (or if more units then whole stacks health) is let's say less then a 5% of health it becomes invisible for ranged units because of smaller target
Just to make it clear, it would be perfectly okay for it to stay the way it is now.
2. This would also make sense for airplane bombardement (tactical bombers) to infantry units. When we go into consideration, that artillery units (enough men) are forced to make an active move with his, let's exaggerate, 10 arty-only-stack. This would open up numerous more tactics.
Have you ever not seen players using arty or planes destroying countries while inflicting over ten thousands or even hundred thousands casualties which in return lost only hundred or even none.
No, I actually never witnessed a real Player vs Player war that finished like that. That is possible only if Player is not active at all or against island AI while using navy.After few airstrikes you will reach almost a 1000 casualties for yourself without enemy having to attack you.
If enemy is attacking with artillery with some buffer units in front you should do next:
*if no aa protection use airstrikes
*if in reach of naval units, attack from sea
*if no other option is left,engage in melee combat with buffer units, provide artillery and air support and expect from enemy to do the same. If you paid enough attention on terrain and doctrine bonuses aswell as units difference between you and your enemy you will be able to win conflict.
War is nothing more then a very tricky mind game, you and your enemy trying to overthink one another.
If you do not have aa/air support/artillery on your side and you get overpowered by someone who does. It doesn't mean that those unita are OP,it just means they are necessity and you made a mistake by avoiding use of them.
I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
Problem is here: doctrin ally: day one - tactical bomber vs. doctrin comintern: weakest Anti-Air-Units in the game
Only thing you can do is hang on to mega-stacks with very slow anti-air in it. Otherwise you will get busted by ally doctrin.
I think what makes the shoot and scoot tactic so effective is the 50% movement penalty on enemy territory. What I think is completely unrealistic is how quickly the movement rate switches. I mean you take over a province and instantly your movement rate doubles?! If movement rates on non-core providences were tied to morale somehow when you own it, that may balance things out. The change in rates shouldn't be as instant as flipping a light switch.
With bombers I agree with earlier comments about AA being too week and passive. The difference between damage values against air units between AA units and a regular infantry is not enough. Plus it should be able to do something to units when they see them to limit the effectiveness of using air units for recon.
21 Jul 2022, 12:45
Destructo the Great wrote:
I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
You let them to kill your units from range without defending or offending
Hurbala wrote:
Problem is here: doctrin ally: day one - tactical bomber vs. doctrin comintern: weakest Anti-Air-Units in the gameOnly thing you can do is hang on to mega-stacks with very slow anti-air in it. Otherwise you will get busted by ally doctrin.
comimtern have cheaper units and should really on mass production.
Even axis AA is significantly cheaper then aircraft.
Фарис Синановић, Суна
21 Jul 2022, 13:01
Suna232 wrote:
Destructo the Great wrote:
I’ve Seen hundred of players that patrol everything with planes. They destroy your anti air with artillery and bomb your artillery to death
You let them to kill your units from range without defending or offending
Hurbala wrote:
Problem is here: doctrin ally: day one - tactical bomber vs. doctrin comintern: weakest Anti-Air-Units in the gameOnly thing you can do is hang on to mega-stacks with very slow anti-air in it. Otherwise you will get busted by ally doctrin.
comimtern have cheaper units and should really on mass production.Even axis AA is significantly cheaper then aircraft.
speed is the factor which will kill you vs air. you loose everything except mega-stacks. try it out. you will see ... the light tanks or mot.infantry will take everything away from comi-player.
speed is the factor which will kill you vs air. you loose everything except mega-stacks. try it out. you will see ... the light tanks or mot.infantry will take everything away from comi-player.
I simply do not agree. Game is well balanced, every doctrine have it's own benefits and weaknesses.
I do not go well with comintern doctrine but have faced many opponents that do.
No point in further discussion.
Фарис Синановић, Суна
21 Jul 2022, 15:35
Sounds like someone keeps getting smashed by artty and wants an easy way out lol. The way support is in this game is just fine the way it is now. Haven aa or fighters to counter your enemies bombers works.
21 Jul 2022, 21:04
halom44 wrote:
Sounds like someone keeps getting smashed by artty and wants an easy way out lol. The way support is in this game is just fine the way it is now. Haven aa or fighters to counter your enemies bombers works.
But when some random guy builds up a whole ass 25 stack with anti air, infantry, arty, armored car and railroad gun. There is really little options you have to destroy it. Its easier to counter bomber, but if someone just camps with arty. its much harder. unless you pour like 60 units to destroy a single stack.
21 Jul 2022, 22:04
Well it's a lot less mobile for sure.
22 Jul 2022, 07:11
well I think you should nerf damage of artillery and tac bombers and buff anti air and the range of interceptors
知己知彼，百战不殆
22 Jul 2022, 10:51
halom44 wrote:
Sounds like someone keeps getting smashed by artty and wants an easy way out lol. The way support is in this game is just fine the way it is now. Haven aa or fighters to counter your enemies bombers works.
The people backing this balancing are the ones smashing players left n right with artys and planes. It's boring.
22 Jul 2022, 12:44
Z. Sakki wrote:
The people backing this balancing are the ones smashing players left n right with artys and planes. It's boring.
Hitler's blitzkrieg was successful because it used advanced technology to overwhelm enemy forces. First, airplanes bombed a region, then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces followed by artillery shallig.
This is the beginning of WW2,beginning of new strategys and the time where this game is taking place.
Essentially airforce and artillery that is used for attack rather then more familiar use of them earlier mostly for defence.
You as a Player need to use those tactics and in same time make yourself prepared for defence of it.
Фарис Синановић, Суна
22 Jul 2022, 13:06
but the bombers never killed of every single enemy. In call of war everyone uses planes will destroys every thing and capture pronvinces with lvl 1 militias. So there is no use for tanks
知己知彼，百战不殆
22 Jul 2022, 13:39 (edited)
That's not what's happening in CoW. If you build anything other than planes and artys + def troops to cover the artys, you'd lose.
If you try what you just said:
Suna232 wrote:
Hitler's blitzkrieg was successful because it used advanced technology to overwhelm enemy forces. First, airplanes bombed a region, then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces followed by artillery shallig.
- You'd lose. The correct approach would be to shell the crap out of a target with arty and planes then move in to capture the now empty province. No "then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces", if you do that, you're just wasting resources.
If you missed it, we actually want the game to be played that way, hence the call for balancing because currently, you just can't play that way because the game is too arty-centered. With shoot n scoot, melee offensive units are just not viable. I think you can even ditch planes except for ints and just double down on artys. They're that broken.
You're essentially obligated to go arty every single time if you want to win and it gets old really fast. It's boring. Might as well just rebrand the game to Call of Artillery at this point.
22 Jul 2022, 14:39
I’ve just always assumed the creator of the game was a totally biased artilleryman and adapted my tactics accordingly.
22 Jul 2022, 15:23
And another obvious proof is when you check on unit's detail of very high KD players you will see the most destroying units will be either planes or arty having most kills.
3 Aug 2022, 02:13
Suna232 wrote:
Z. Sakki wrote:
The people backing this balancing are the ones smashing players left n right with artys and planes. It's boring.
Hitler's blitzkrieg was successful because it used advanced technology to overwhelm enemy forces. First, airplanes bombed a region, then fast-moving ground troops moved in to surround enemy forces followed by artillery shallig.
This is the beginning of WW2,beginning of new strategys and the time where this game is taking place.
Essentially airforce and artillery that is used for attack rather then more familiar use of them earlier mostly for defence.
You as a Player need to use those tactics and in same time make yourself prepared for defence of it
No Planes and Arty were used to weaken and disperse enemy lines, not to directly kill them. Infantry can easily take cover from planes and arty, as evidenced in World War I. The British shelled the Germans at Somme for over 7 days with over 1.7 mil shells. Yet the Germans simply hid in trenches and were fine and provided ample resistance to British assult, inflicting heavy casualties. This was also evidenced in World War II during the battle of Seelow heights, where the Soviets placed over 9,000 rocket arty and arty and bombarded German positions. Yet, most German forces survived and were able to inflict more losses on Soviets with far less forces. With air planes, during the battle of Sedan, French forces only suffered minor losses from airplanes. The true damage came from dispersion not actual damage. Tanks and infantry are used to go in and inflict damage and capture prisoners.
