Change back the dog fight mechanics

Stormbringer50 wrote:

I submit again. If a patrol is moved, any unit in range that can attack an aircraft gets a free unanswered attack. That will kill the exploit without killing the patrol function, or nerfing planes. Devs: this may not be the easy to program choice, but it is the right choice until someone comes up with a better one.

Clanpred wrote:

good point, perhaps the answer would be to attack as a stack of 50 but then SBDE kicks in.

You realize that this whole thread has been about trying to remove that patrol timing exploit. And almost all of the good methods have the side effect of rendering the SBDE exploit eliminated. Now, my reasoning for wanting rid of the exploit have been talked about numerous times but it's basically just to keep air units from bypassing the same rules that ground and sea units have to follow. Also, I hate to break it to you, but @freezy, early in this thread, basically said as much as endorsing the removal of the SBDE exploit without even meaning too.

For those of you unhappy with that, I say "tough titty". It's about time that we got rid of both of these exploits once and for all. You don't have to nerf the aircraft, you don't have to change the ratings of AA. You only have to remove the exploits. THEN, the real strategists can play this game the way it was meant to be. And all those "noobs" can actually survive more than a single battle with a gigantic fleet of bombers.

I see many people voting for E, please keep in mind that this option will slow the game a lot, as pro players wont be direct attacking and taking all kinds of risk of the direct attack! For me option E should he removed from the poll

@MarkAchkar: No, game speed stays the same. You have only to change your strategy.

Without airpower the maps will most likely turn to artilery fights... and that will be boring.. beside how can u defend ur lands using airpower? If enemy attacks a province and u got no troops in it, he will take it and breach u ... ? Am i right? In this case patrol will be useless , and we can say goodby to sleeping hours when we get nations with big borders. In addition enemy planes can now cross the patrol area hit what they want outside the patrol area and go back, in this case whats the benefit of patrol if it will allow planes to flyby. And itvwas mentioned that planes will hit if they get direct attacked while patroling, who would attack a patroling airplanes? That is suicide. So this options removes the airpower from the strtaegy and planes become a defensive option = slow games

imagine u both have planes patroling same area, ur ground troops attack his ground troops, does ur planes on patrol hit these planes as well and ground troops?Or just the defending team get the patrol tick? Im seing the games becoming boring and defensive if the answer is only defending units gets the planes tick, and im talking here the tick to damage both air and ground units..

MarkAchkar wrote:

For me option E should he removed from the poll

MarkAchkar wrote:

s pro players wont be direct attacking

@Clanpred whatever the nerfs or startegies will be, i will always be the best, im not worried about not defeating players, im worried about the game becoming slow/defensive/boring, i hope we can keep this subject out of this conversation

only in that this subject is relevant in how you present your case.

I've always thought you were a top player, maybe not the best, probably better than me though Time will tell

I think we need more Arms Race events though.

Hey guys

Thank you for all the discussion and insights.

To those suggesting additional options, like adjusting how SBDE is calculated or that fleeing planes should get damaged by an extra attack: As I said in my earlier post, I talked with the Devs through all these suggestions already and they are not feasible in the time frame we have to solve the issue. Therefore only options A) to E) remain. It may be possible to combine certain aspects of these options, for example combine A) and C).

But from what I can see in this thread the majority thinks E) is the best option (via posts in this thread as well as in the poll Xarus made), followed by those who think D) is the best option.

However the best and most plausible arguments were also presented by those favouring E) as solution, with arguments taking the different player groups and skill levels into account and also explaining why the solution would be easy to understand.

I also think that arguments like "this will kill the whole airforce" are a bit over the top, so I did not give them much weight. Maybe some of you play Conflict of Nations, there the planes basically act as in option C). And still airforce is a strong component in CoN. Or maybe you play Supremacy 1914, there planes act similar to option E), and still airforce is a strong component of S1914. So while I think that strategies will change and airforce may get an additional weakness, I don't think that it will remove airforce from the game. After all airforce is one of the strongest components in the game and probably remains that way even with the change, so a small negative trade-off for their benefits would actually be fair. If we see afterwards that planes become too weak we could just give them better combat stats.

We will therefore schedule the implementation of E), which means patroling will be changed to a defensive option. Planes won't actively attack something in their patrol radius anymore, but they will defend against enemy planes that attack them directly or that attack a friendly unit within their patrol radius. And of course they keep their scouting and revealing ability.

If everything goes well I would assume the change will "probably" be released in the update after the next one.

question @freezy imagine u both have planes paroling the same area with both having ground troops under it, player 1 ground troops attack player 2 ground troops, what happens here?

Does the planes of the attacked person, tick on air and ground unit of the assaulting player?

Does the assaulting player planes retaliate and tick on air and ground units of the defending player after they get hit by the planes tick?

can you please explain how it works in this scenario

if i understood correctly, on patrol planes will not defend vs ground units attacking other ground units, only planes will get hit by patrol?

@freezy. u r letting 10 votes decide this issue after only 2 days of voting. thats taking a poll of .01% of the users in the game. there is no way we have taken an accurate sampling of the communities view of the question.

I would ask u delay ur decision until we get a more accurate poll.

It would seem rather that you are going to let a specific group (the players league) to settle the problem.

and patrolling planes not attacking invading armies will absolutely nerf planes. how can u say it won't?

and making planes return to base after every attack will also cause them to be the only unit in the game to not get one attack per hour. How can u say this is not true.

the only trade off for option E would be to strengthen the attack values for planes. I think that may be fair. But it would have to be very significant. Something like all values raised 150%. Or, reducing refueling times drastically, or speeding planes up quite a bit.

Please wait for some more input from a more diverse sampling of the community. Thanks, Freezy

Stormbringer50 wrote:

@freezy. u r letting 10 votes decide this issue after only 2 days of voting. thats taking a poll of .01% of the users in the game. there is no way we have taken an accurate sampling of the communities view of the question.

I would ask u delay ur decision until we get a more accurate poll.

It would seem rather that you are going to let a specific group (the players league) to settle the problem.

and patrolling planes not attacking invading armies will absolutely nerf planes. how can u say it won't?

and making planes return to base after every attack will also cause them to be the only unit in the game to not get one attack per hour. How can u say this is not true.

the only trade off for option E would be to strengthen the attack values for planes. I think that may be fair. But it would have to be very significant. Something like all values raised 150%. Or, reducing refueling times drastically, or speeding planes up quite a bit.

Please wait for some more input from a more diverse sampling of the community. Thanks, Freezy

PLEASE don't make air attacks stronger than they already are, they are ALREADY way overpowered! I met a player in a competitive match the other day that built (in terms of res usage) an estimated 25% SPAA and 75% air force, and he wrecked everyone doing more land forces of any type...

but roko if defensive planes on patrol , attacking planes can never be used on direct attack, they will loose all! all the system must be changed

roko u r forgetting the x factor. i have seen too many instances when a direct attack does little or no damage. Under patrol, when this happens, it is not as devastating.

and lets not forget the invasion scenario. if i put my planes on patrol on my coasts, or over key provs, the enemy will just march in and take it, unopposed. thats not fair either. and it is certainly not realistic. Sure, I could make sure i have a friendly unit standing there, and they would attack, but with air being expensive, that is not practical. and finally, if there is a friendly unit there, and it is destroyed, then the planes will just stop attacking? That is just ridiculous.

@freezy. there has to be a better way to deal with this exploit. also, what kind of bugs are going to emerge from reworking plane mechanics where sometimes planes attack on patrol, and sometimes they dont. this has to be a concern for you as well, doesnt it?

Slow the roll. we can find an option that will defeat the exploit without taking away patrol. option A is looking better and better if you guys feel that something has to be done. at least u wont be killing the patrol function

MarkAchkar wrote:

question @freezy imagine u both have planes paroling the same area with both having ground troops under it, player 1 ground troops attack player 2 ground troops, what happens here?

Does the planes of the attacked person, tick on air and ground unit of the assaulting player?

Does the assaulting player planes retaliate and tick on air and ground units of the defending player after they get hit by the planes tick?

can you please explain how it works in this scenario

if i understood correctly, on patrol planes will not defend vs ground units attacking other ground units, only planes will get hit by patrol?

Stormbringer50 wrote:

@freezy. u r letting 10 votes decide this issue after only 2 days of voting. thats taking a poll of .01% of the users in the game. there is no way we have taken an accurate sampling of the communities view of the question.

I would ask u delay ur decision until we get a more accurate poll.

It would seem rather that you are going to let a specific group (the players league) to settle the problem.

and patrolling planes not attacking invading armies will absolutely nerf planes. how can u say it won't?

and making planes return to base after every attack will also cause them to be the only unit in the game to not get one attack per hour. How can u say this is not true.

the only trade off for option E would be to strengthen the attack values for planes. I think that may be fair. But it would have to be very significant. Something like all values raised 150%. Or, reducing refueling times drastically, or speeding planes up quite a bit.

Please wait for some more input from a more diverse sampling of the community. Thanks, Freezy

Of course air force gets nerfed by this change, but it will still be a strong aspect in the game. Right now one might even say airforce is too dominant/powerful as it has too many benefits without any drawbacks. Needing to fly back to refuel would be such a drawback and I would say it is fair considering they are super mobile and can pretty much strike all over the world. So I think the change might even improve the current balancing. A good player probably won't be hurt by the change and can still use his higher activity to his advantage, for example by striking the enemy refueling planes.

I know you are disappointed and I know you don't agree because you really like using alot of planes, and who wants to see their favorite strategy nerfed? So I can also understand why you now call for a bigger user sample, in the hope that the result might change. But would you also request that if D) would have won in our survey here? What if we get more opinions and then the next group questions the results and calls for an even bigger sample, and this repeats over and over again because there is always someone unsatisfied? There will always be a side that is not completely happy with the decision, this will also not change if we ask the whole community. I announced in my post that this decision will be affected by the arguments of the active users in this discussions, and that's why I reminded everyone that arguments should be made by keeping all player groups in mind. We can't and won't ask everyone about this change. In the end it is also our call and we do what we think will improve the game the most, and the input in this thread helped to shape this vision.

I would say we should give it a try. If we see planes become too useless, we will change the balancing afterwards. But please, first try to adjust your strategies. The change will be on beta for 2 weeks and can even be tested beforehand.

K.Rokossovski wrote:

Actually, direct attack is already a more effective tactic than patrolling in temrs of net damage output.

@freezy. we posted at the same time. see the post above yours.

and, respectfully, if i had wanted to be selfish about it, i would have simply asked my numerous friends to come in and vote the same way as me. but i didnt. i have a lot more class than that. i asked that people come and make suggestions of their own so we would have a bigger sample. To me the point of the post was to defeat an exploit/ game imbalance.

I feel this got railroaded thru. if there was an overwhelming response to any one of the options, i would have accepted it easily. but such a big change from such a small sample is unacceptable.

is voting now closed?

MarkAchkar wrote:

but roko if defensive planes on patrol , attacking planes can never be used on direct attack, they will loose all! all the system must be changed

- Patrolling planes should NOT interfere when enemy AIR groups attack friendly AIR groups; they should also not interfere in Ground-Ground combat; the only role of patrolling is defending against AIR-GROUND attack (plus of course manoever and scouting)

- Direct AIR-AIR attack should be looked at, most players agree that it is buggy and results are HIGHLY biased in the defender´s favor. It needs to be rebalanced so equal off-def groups inflict equal damage (perhaps SLIGHTLY in the def's favor by the off-def factors of the tacs.)

MarkAchkar wrote:

Without airpower the maps will most likely turn to artilery fights... and that will be boring.. beside how can u defend ur lands using airpower? If enemy attacks a province and u got no troops in it, he will take it and breach u ... ? Am i right? In this case patrol will be useless , and we can say goodby to sleeping hours when we get nations with big borders. In addition enemy planes can now cross the patrol area hit what they want outside the patrol area and go back, in this case whats the benefit of patrol if it will allow planes to flyby. And itvwas mentioned that planes will hit if they get direct attacked while patroling, who would attack a patroling airplanes? That is suicide. So this options removes the airpower from the strtaegy and planes become a defensive option = slow games

You can still use planes to direct attack land units and moving planes. Why are you so dependent on the patrol system? I mean, if you can stay up long enough to micro the planes, then you certainly would have time to attack directly.

Any game with big border poses a challenge, you have to think tactically where the enemy would strike, that is where Militia comes to play. Cheap cost, short training time, strong defensive stats. This fix will force you to take into account the strength of your defense line, you will send planes to where it requires the most.

There is no absolute defense, and the breach in the front is not that dependent on the current patrol system.

I do agree with you on the patrol zone letting planes pass. It kinda defeats the purpose of patrolling. Patrolling should be able to intercept planes moving through the zone as well. However, as I've said, we are looking urgently for a temporary fix. We will have to decide on an option that is feasible for the devs to code in a small amount of time before moving to a much larger patch.

I don't see how this fix would remove airpower from any strategy or make it a defensive option. You will still have the direct attack option floating around. The only reason I think many like the patrol system so much excluding the overlapping patrol zone is because direct attack planes at patrolling planes cause 100% to the attacker but the patrolling planes only take 25% damage, which is ridiculous and unrealistic. An organized search and destroy party of planes should be able to make quick work of patrolling planes, which are spread out and have low organization. But it's a problem for another thread

MarkAchkar wrote:

imagine u both have planes patroling same area, ur ground troops attack his ground troops, does ur planes on patrol hit these planes as well and ground troops?Or just the defending team get the patrol tick? Im seing the games becoming boring and defensive if the answer is only defending units gets the planes tick, and im talking here the tick to damage both air and ground units..

1.Like Mark said: if ground troops attack each other under overlapping patrol zone of friendly and enemy planes, how will the planes react; to land units, to air units. How will the damage is distributed?

2. Same situation, but multiple stacks patrolling on top of each other. How will the planes react if one of them trigger the defensive attack from one stack of planes? Say 5 stacks of friendly planes and 5 stacks of hostile planes on top of each other. Will 1 stack of friendly planes have to take fire damage from 5 stacks of hostile planes? If that happens then the problem will still persist, although to a smaller degree.

If planes no longer do damage patrolling. I will quit this game. Sad!