Destroying Own Infrastructure

koukaldr wrote:

Has anyone ever brought up the idea of allowing players to destroy their own infrastructure (barracks, air fields, industrial complexes, etc.) when in retreat?

...

Yes, of course, but:

Even an industrial complex level 1 is not comparable with just a single building / a small factory, but already corresponds to at least one industrial area or whole district with many different production and processing factories, and of course at higher levels with a correspondingly larger expansion.

To destroy all "buildings" in an enemy province, either several strategic bombers over a longer time or equal a few dozen rockets are required.

So, if someone really want to be able to free an own province completely from buildings at the push of a button, he would at least have to invest the equivalent for the explosive power of the necessary bombs or warheads (the proportionally resources).

But if one still have the resources needed to do so, it would be unwise to apply them to destroy own buildings the enemy probably do not need anyway (because: how else has he managed it to threaten / conquer that province?). Better to use this resources for wapons against the enemy units instead.

That means, if an enemy is already strong enough that he can invade provinces with "good" buildings, it's maybe more harm for yourself than for your enemy when you're wasting ressources for blasting your own buildings.

So it's actually a brilliant protection mechanism for Noobs, that they can not scrap their own provinces.

Yes, the idea has been proposed numerous times, in multiple different formats. A quick search of the forum archive should turn up numerous threads on point. Bytro staff have never shown any interest in implementing any form of it.

Cheers.

So we are stuck with permanent harbors in the wrong place just like in Supremacy, thats just wonderful... NOT!!

Restrisiko wrote:

he would at least have to invest the equivalent for the explosive power of the necessary bombs or warheads (the proportionally resources).

Quasi-duck wrote:

Restrisiko wrote:

he would at least have to invest the equivalent for the explosive power of the necessary bombs or warheads (the proportionally resources).

Or you could just strip and destroy the most important parts. It's like putting sand in the fuel tank of a vehicle you leave behind, or just destroying the power. Hell, the Soviets were even blowing up dams. When a province is taken, I imagine they have fuel and ammo dumps that need to be destroyed. These can be put to good use.

Absolute right, and it's already simulated here, because in any conquered province, even if it's conquered without a fight, buildings will automatically partially damaged.

However to completely destroying entire industrial sites with many factories at once would require a lot of energy (ressource) effort.

And even partial dismantling or destroying beyond the mentioned and existing automatic damage should have to cost some energy (resources / manpower) and then additionally time (in relation to the construction-time) for the player who wants to do so.

Restrisiko wrote:

Absolute right, and it's already simulated here, because in any conquered province, even if it's conquered without a fight, buildings will automatically partially damaged.

I guess my original point was that if you're on the run and in a really desperate situation, destroying your infrastructure so it won't fall into the hands of your adversary might be a good move if it buys you some breathing room. My assumption is that you're not destroying everything, just what's within the reach of your enemy. I'm okay with the idea that you'd be charged some energy points or whatever.

koukaldr wrote:

energy points

I'm of the opinion that "breathing room" is built into the game already. Typically when an enemy province that has a Lvl 1 Industrial Complex, Lvl 1 Infrastructure or Lvl 1 Airbase is captured, each of those is reduced by at least 1/2 health. For example, rarely is a full health Lvl 1 Airbase usable (1/2 complete) after being captured - usually I'll get an airbase that needs 11 or 12 hours to complete (2 or 3 hours until usable) after capture. Aircraft at a 1/2 completed airbase require 30 min to refuel and are extremely vulnerable during that time. A Lvl 1 Industrial Complex is at least 1 day and prohibitively expensive in terms of resources required - especially early game - to repair after capture. Only then can production be started and there is at least another day until unit completion. That should give plenty of time to reposition forces as needed.

As you build higher level buildings you get greater rewards in terms of resource and unit production/capability. Those rewards come with risks - such as turning over operational buildings if they are captured. Those provinces had better be protected.

This game is much more intricate than most players realize. Changing even small things in design can have a profound outcome in gameplay. I think building damage upon capture is pretty well balanced as is.

we just need to be able to scrap buildings. The game Conflict of nations has this and damn, is it useful.

I feel like CoW is behind in so may features like that.

consider this my monthly reply to a thread.

TankBuster wrote:

We just need to be able to scrap buildings.

85 or 90% of the original metals used

0 to 75% of the original rare materials used, depending on the nature of the building

10 to 50% of the original goods used, depending on the building

0% of the original oil expended

0% of the original food expended

0% of the original cash costs

That said, this is not one of those COW oddities that keeps me up at night. Consider this my one comment on the topic for calendar year 2018.

Quasi-duck wrote:

koukaldr wrote:

energy points

Please do not mention energy points, those are awful. I think it should cost money and oil, idk how much.

We should be able to destroy any building for:

*less time than it took to build and

*less cost than it took to build

We should be able to move most buildings for a cost in cash, goods, oil, and time (maybe manpower). The Russians did this in WWII to get critical machinery out of harm's way. They moved whole factories into the Urals. What is a factory anyway but a bunch of concrete buildings filled with machines? The most valuable part of a factory is the machine; once it is built and paid for, moving it is a small matter. Cement buildings can be imploded easily with a little bit of goods and oil and cash.

[size=10]Restrisiko writes that it should cost the owner as much to destroy your buildings as it would cost the enemy to destroy them. I disagree. Which would be easier, destroying your neighbors house or your own house? I don't know my neighbor's house well enough to know how to destroy it easily, but my own... easy. Maybe the ease of destroying the buildings could be tied to morale - the higher the morale, the easier and quicker it gets done. This would prevent the quick raids into enemy territory from quickly wiping out all buildings as the morale in a conquered territory drops to 25%. My province at 80% morale should be easy to get the people to dismantle everything quickly.[/size]

TacoGod wrote:

Restrisiko writes that it should cost the owner as much to destroy your buildings as it would cost the enemy to destroy them. I disagree. Which would be easier, destroying your neighbors house or your own house?

I prefer to destroy the buildings of my neighbors / enemies and not my own -- was always the best way to win ..

.. so why should I facilitate my opponents work?

Restrisiko,

I prefer that as well, but when an ally turns on me (or collapses) and my troops are far away, it would be nice to deny him/her access to my buildings.

MontanaBB wrote:

I concur: buildings should be able to be scrapped and some resource inputs recovered. With, of course, a substantial percentage penalty of lost resource inputs because no demolition/recycling project ever recovers the full value of the original inputs, especially the dollar costs. A reasonable resource recovery would look something like this:

85 or 90% of the original metals used

0 to 75% of the original rare materials used, depending on the nature of the building

10 to 50% of the original goods used, depending on the building

0% of the original oil expended

0% of the original food expended

0% of the original cash costs

That said, this is not one of those COW oddities that keeps me up at night. Consider this my one comment on the topic for calendar year 2018.

I hope you are agree, that over 66% player dont defend their backyards well. "best" taktiuk of most players is diplomatic assurance of backyards with neighbours and rushing almoast 90% of own troops to enemy.

If cow would have manual scorched earth ability, every single unit behind frontline would be deadly.

But what about economy killer steamroller stack? Wich overrun provinces without holding them, but destroying all building immediatly after conquering?

I used this taktik in CoN very often. It is really war breaker taktik in 1 vs half map wars...

TacoGod wrote:

Restrisiko,

I prefer that as well, but when an ally turns on me (or collapses) and my troops are far away, it would be nice to deny him/her access to my buildings.

But you want to win or not ..!? !!

Instead So you want to destroy your buildings quickly in such a case as you described ..!?

OK; but who should do that if, as you wrote, you have no troops there? Well, let's say, an imaginary local militia will do that , .. so you definitely have to invest manpower ..

.. and with what they do it? >> they would, especially if it should go fast, use a lot of resources (explosives), because, for example, even an "industrial complex" level 1 is not just a single building, but represents already a lot of different production strands, in many factorys >> so they also need time ..

.. and that's why "Scorched Earth" is, in this game, basically a bad idea :

Because either your opponent is strong enough that he does not need your buildings anyway (because how else could he conquer important province(s) ??), then a "Scorched Earth" will not save you anymore .. >>

>> .. and/but/or, more importantly >> with "Scorched Earth" you're just wasting your own resources that you could use much better for a counter strike against your opponent instead of against yourself .. >>

>> .. and, if you later recapture province(s) and before have used "scorched earth option" you have to rebuild everything completely in there (..which with "Scorched Earth Option" would probably has to do everyone in every conquered province -- that means a lot of "building material" [ressources] would have additionally to be pulled / generated at each map .. and much more time will needed) ..

Incidentally, the second argument often made pro "Scorched Earth" >> "it has always been done in history so the advancing enemy can not live from the country (or use it's ressourcess)" is right, completely realistic, but here for CoW absolutely irrelevant -- because unlike in a Simulation (or in reality) in this board game there are no "supply routes" >> you can, for example, fill the thick sticky black oil from a fresh conquered province on the Gulf in the same second, as a fine refined gasoline into the tanks of your tanks at any place else in the world.

(But anyway, every conquered province is automatically set to 25%, which minimizes the resource yield accordingly for a time.)

Restrisiko,

I don't know if I can address all of your comments. Here is one people tend to ignore. Yes a captured province is limited to a maximum of 25% production of stuff compared to when it is run by its own independent government AND when it changes hands (through conquest) its morale drops to 25% thus decreasing production even more.

BUT it still produces a tank in 12 hours or anti-tank in 6 hours or militia in 4 hours and sends it into battle at full strength. This is the greatest problem and reason why we need to be able to destroy our own factories.

You repeatedly mention the need for lots of money, time, manpower, explosives, etc to destroy a factory because it represents many buildings and a supply system. What do you consider enough? If it takes 48 hours to build a level 1 IC along with:

7500 goods

10000 steel

5000 rare materials

20000 cash

I see no mention of manpower in the construction cost for any level of IC. Dismantling should cost about:

4000 cash to destroy or 8000 cash to dismantle

6 hour to destroy or 12 hours to dismantle

1000 oil if you want to relocate the IC

3000 goods to rebuild

12 hours to rebuild

Why not have a truck convoy that carries the factory equipment to the new province? It can get bombed by planes and travels at medium tank speeds.

Without this option, there is basically only ONE way to play this game: Attack Aggressively. The winning players often are those who all play alike. There should be more than one way to play/win this game.

if the problem is producing units in 25% morale provinces as fast as in 100% morale provinces, why dont you suggest to make the production time related to the province morale? the lower the morale the more it takes

that'd make more sense instead of blowing up the whole city

bytro is already testing the unit production time related to province morale in other games of theirs

Of course if talking about realism, it would be completely correct to be able to destroy own IC, barracks and airfields quickly and with virtually no costs (buildings can be simply burned down - all you need for that is a little bit of oil and a match) and infra, naval bases and fortresses with low costs within a few in-game hours.

While relocating IC or even infra to another province would be a bit fantastic...

Military production capacities might be relocated with some effort, OK, but IC in CoW also gives resource production bonus. And can you imagine relocating that? Like, dismantling a steel mill in Liverpool and reusing it as a refinery in London? Or even moving a steel mill from Liverpool to Manchester - the easiest example? A few parts might be reused when building the IC elsewhere, but we really can neglect that.

Anyhow in my opinion all of these questions are irrelevant, because a scorched earth feature wouldn't be good for gameplay. Mainly because attacking an inactive neighbour or AI is now already too beneficial compared to attacking an active human player. If the latter would make you conquer only scorched earth, that would make it worse.