How to play France in hww

z00mz00m wrote:

This reminds me: the best defense is a good offense.

Let's say France is not on good terms with Germany. You can see them moving units. Their flanks are covered (because they are not at war with anyone else). It's looking bad for the French.

My approach to this situation is to identify German troop concentrations that either (1) lack AA cover, or (2) lack artillery support. Then I would attack (1) with my whole air force while bombarding (2) with all my artillery, before the German player can wake up and go on the attack. When they come online, their army will be bleeding heavily, and they will start rushing at you in anger and desperation. This is when you play smart, give ground, let them (slowly) advance across your hills and forests while continuing to bombard them. Only defend when you have no other choice, like when they reach a core city. Build bunkers and make a stand in Nancy, for example. By the time the Germans reach the city, they will be half dead, attacking infantry and AT guns in a fortified city.

Keep all your armor units in reserve, in case the Germans are smart and make a breakthrough with fast units. But if they do the typical thing and move slowly in a mass of mixed units, just bombard them while slowly giving ground. Forests and mountains are easy to take back later. Use them for what they are: a killing field for your artillery and bomber forces.

And don't get into artillery duels. See a stack of arty, kill it with bombers, let your arty work on defenseless stacks of armor and infantry.

I read in another thread that France starts out with minus 300 food, wtf is that?

The first thing you need to do is (obviously) solve your food issue. I don't play France so I have no experience, but you'll need to find some way of avoiding war with Germany, at least for the first few days.

Carking the 6th wrote:

Why not use forts to bog them down? I looked at a resource production and France and Germany are almost equal at day two (this was an active Germany and a completely inactive France, with Germany having about 9k more. 117k to 108k.) if you use a well defended Maginot, with decent amounts of upgraded interceptors and AA, along with other defensive units like your Tank destroyers and Infantry, you can have a favorable ratio to a Germany that can barely out produce you. There wears them down and eventually will force them back. Germany can’t will long term as long as you don’t let them break through.

Because it's always better to win without losses.

How do you do that?

Avoid close combat.

How do you do that?

Bombard enemy formations to wipe them out.

How do you do that?

Target close combat units with your artillery.

How do you give your artillery more time to shoot more rounds?

Keep moving back and shooting, aka shoot and scoot.

What if the enemy has artillery?

Try to get rid of them with air power.

What if the enemy has a ton of AA *and* artillery?

Kill everything else with your artillery and air. Hit that hardened air resistant, arty resistant stack with a direct attack, then bring your arty into range to bombard while the enemy stack is engaged in close combat. The more firepower you bring at the same time, the faster you win, the less HP you lose.

z00mz00m wrote:

Carking the 6th wrote:

Why not use forts to bog them down? I looked at a resource production and France and Germany are almost equal at day two (this was an active Germany and a completely inactive France, with Germany having about 9k more. 117k to 108k.) if you use a well defended Maginot, with decent amounts of upgraded interceptors and AA, along with other defensive units like your Tank destroyers and Infantry, you can have a favorable ratio to a Germany that can barely out produce you. There wears them down and eventually will force them back. Germany can’t will long term as long as you don’t let them break through.

Because it's always better to win without losses.

How do you do that?

Avoid close combat.

How do you do that?

Bombard enemy formations to wipe them out.

How do you do that?

Target close combat units with your artillery.

How do you give your artillery more time to shoot more rounds?

Keep moving back and shooting, aka shoot and scoot.

What if the enemy has artillery?

Try to get rid of them with air power.

What if the enemy has a ton of AA *and* artillery?

Kill everything else with your artillery and air. Hit that hardened air resistant, arty resistant stack with a direct attack, then bring your arty into range to bombard while the enemy stack is engaged in close combat. The more firepower you bring at the same time, the faster you win, the less HP you lose.

Brando Dilla wrote:

I read in another thread that France starts out with minus 300 food, wtf is that?

The first thing you need to do is (obviously) solve your food issue. I don't play France so I have no experience, but you'll need to find some way of avoiding war with Germany, at least for the first few days.

If the German player is good enough to use his army and air force effectively, then he will not mindlessly smash his army into French forts. He will bombard the French to dust while they stand still and die.

You make a good point that France has less territory to lose. They can't retreat for months, like the Russians did. It also depends how much time you have to build arty before the war starts. If it starts in day 1, then huddle in that fort and hold your nards, because it's going to be ugly.

z00mz00m wrote:

If the German player is good enough to use his army and air force effectively, then he will not mindlessly smash his army into French forts. He will bombard the French to dust while they stand still and die.

You make a good point that France has less territory to lose. They can't retreat for months, like the Russians did. It also depends how much time you have to build arty before the war starts. If it starts in day 1, then huddle in that fort and hold your nards, because it's going to be ugly.

If the war starts on Day 1, I would abandon the Maginot completely and move those units to Nancy, to buy you some time to regroup, while churning out air and ranged units.

If it's war on day 1, and the German player doesn't know what he's doing, you have a chance at survival, if you build the right units, take advantage of opportunities, and stay out of range of the German artillery.

If it's war on day 1, and the German player does know what he's doing, then you're dead meat.

There's a difference.

However, in the first scenario, you can very well win, provided you play efficiently and don't waste units. Here's some pointers:

• France starts with colonies. Germany doesn't. Use this to your advantage.
• It's OK to abandon the Maginot, if those German 8-stacks are getting too close for comfort.
• The German navy is an easy pushover. Use destroyers to defeat their subs, and naval bombers to defeat the rest of their naval units.
• Once you've done that, you can produce battleships and bombard coastal cities like Hamburg to oblivion.
• Produce regular and rocket artillery, so you can harm all forms of units. If you have the resources, maybe produce a railroad gun or two.

Brando Dilla wrote:

If it's war on day 1, and the German player doesn't know what he's doing, you have a chance at survival, if you build the right units, take advantage of opportunities, and stay out of range of the German artillery.

If it's war on day 1, and the German player does know what he's doing, then you're dead meat.

There's a difference.

However, in the first scenario, you can very well win, provided you play efficiently and don't waste units. Here's some pointers:

• France starts with colonies. Germany doesn't. Use this to your advantage.
• It's OK to abandon the Maginot, if those German 8-stacks are getting too close for comfort.
• The German navy is an easy pushover. Use destroyers to defeat their subs, and naval bombers to defeat the rest of their naval units.
• Once you've done that, you can produce battleships and bombard coastal cities like Hamburg to oblivion.
• Produce regular and rocket artillery, so you can harm all forms of units. If you have the resources, maybe produce a railroad gun or two.

I agree with everything you said here, except:

• Spoiler

  Produce regular and rocket artillery, so you can harm all forms of units. If you have the resources, maybe produce a railroad gun or two.

Focus!

Minimize the variety of units (and factories) you invest in. Only research something you need, and need in large quantities. If you don't need it, then ignore it. Try it another time. For example, if you're playing an Axis country and you're short on goods. That's a good time to build (a lot of) RRG instead of regular arty.

z00mz00m wrote:

Brando Dilla wrote:

If it's war on day 1, and the German player doesn't know what he's doing, you have a chance at survival, if you build the right units, take advantage of opportunities, and stay out of range of the German artillery.

If it's war on day 1, and the German player does know what he's doing, then you're dead meat.

There's a difference.

However, in the first scenario, you can very well win, provided you play efficiently and don't waste units. Here's some pointers:

• France starts with colonies. Germany doesn't. Use this to your advantage.
• It's OK to abandon the Maginot, if those German 8-stacks are getting too close for comfort.
• The German navy is an easy pushover. Use destroyers to defeat their subs, and naval bombers to defeat the rest of their naval units.
• Once you've done that, you can produce battleships and bombard coastal cities like Hamburg to oblivion.
• Produce regular and rocket artillery, so you can harm all forms of units. If you have the resources, maybe produce a railroad gun or two.

I agree with everything you said here, except:

• Spoiler

  Produce regular and rocket artillery, so you can harm all forms of units. If you have the resources, maybe produce a railroad gun or two.

Resources and research slots are precious. Don't waste them on "one or two" things. What are you going to do with one or two RRG? They won't do enough damage to make a difference. But the research cost and research time could be used to level up a stack of regular arty (or planes or tanks), which WILL make a difference.

Focus!

Minimize the variety of units (and factories) you invest in. Only research something you need, and need in large quantities. If you don't need it, then ignore it.

But as I stated earlier, I never play as France, so I won't know how they would work in this particular scenario.

Well, they take about 1 day to research and 10 hours to build in a level 4 secret factory, which takes about 2 days to build. If you're playing France, you will be long gone before the RRG are in position to fire on the Germans

z00mz00m wrote:

I agree with the general strategy: be friends with Germany, or if you can't, don't worry about the colonies and focus on all-out war to save the core of France.

My recommendation is to not "spam" a lot of low-level units, crowding forts and waiting for Germany to smash into them. It's difficult to win that kind of war against an active Germany, who has better Axis units and starts with higher research levels across the board.

The way to gain the upper hand is to identify 2-3 types of units that can win the war, and prioritize research into those units. As an Allied player, that usually means air force: interceptors and bombers. Allied level 4 interceptors in stacks of 10 can stop any air force, except maybe Pan Asians. But this requires a lot of activity on your part. If you're not comfortable with that, then go in the opposite direction and build a lot of AA guns and normal+rocket artillery. Rocket artillery is essential for killing enemy infantry, motorized infantry, artillery, and light armor. Place these (leveled up!) barrage+AA stacks behind your front line units so they don't get into direct contact with the enemy. When the enemy is sleeping, move forward, and bombard as long as you can, then pull back behind your line. Try to win this way, by destroying the German army from bombardment range, avoiding direct combat with their superior ground forces. Forts and defensive units like infantry and AT guns are still useful to hold the Germans in place, giving your bombardment stacks more time to do their dirty work. And the AA guns protect your bombardment units, which are very vulnerable to air attack.

Allied doctrine has low production time plus low upgrade costs. They are the best for spamming low level units, shift the production to another line while researching the former, then upgrade the former to high level time-efficiently.

Usually as Germany I defeat France automatically once I get past the Maginot. There is just nothing they can do when they are without such an advantage. The best idea is to jam your own units into those forts and use them to hold the Germans back, time is what you need here as the allied doctrine will exponentially catch up to the Germans. Over time you do better and they’ll weaken. That’s how it worked in WW1 actually, Allie’s wearing down the Germans over time. Had the Germans not took France in a month then it could have happened historically too.

Fellenore wrote:

The problem with not-spamming low level ordnance units is that they take a lot of time to make at higher levels. Gradual upgrade is terrible economy-wise. If France waits with the production until she gets lvl 4 or so ordnances, then the German tankists will swim on the Côte d'Azur with a bellyful of Château de l'Hermitage by the time the first barrels come out in Damascus and Saigon to save the day.

Allied doctrine has low production time plus low upgrade costs. They are the best for spamming low level units, shift the production to another line while researching the former, then upgrade the former to high level time-efficiently.

Agreed 100%

This is why I use the multi level upgrade trick. For example, spam 10 level 1 fighters. Time the level 2 research so it arrives after the 10th fighter is in the build queue. Start level 3 research while level 1 fighters are still coming off the assembly line. Make sure you're around when level 3 research is scheduled to finish. Start upgrading all the fighters before level 3 research is done. This sets the cost of the upgrade to level 2, but when the upgrade completes, the fighters will be level 3.

The same approach works for a jump from 1 to 4 or higher, but it's more expensive and takes longer. In some cases 1 to 4 makes sense, like when your level 4 tech arrives early, and you don't need the units right away. In other cases 1 to 3 is the only viable option.

With this approach, I almost never build anything except level 1 factories and level 1 units. I can build an entire, leveled up air force with complete 10 stacks of fighters and bombers from 1 level 1 aircraft factory.

z00mz00m wrote:

Fellenore wrote:

The problem with not-spamming low level ordnance units is that they take a lot of time to make at higher levels. Gradual upgrade is terrible economy-wise. If France waits with the production until she gets lvl 4 or so ordnances, then the German tankists will swim on the Côte d'Azur with a bellyful of Château de l'Hermitage by the time the first barrels come out in Damascus and Saigon to save the day.

Allied doctrine has low production time plus low upgrade costs. They are the best for spamming low level units, shift the production to another line while researching the former, then upgrade the former to high level time-efficiently.

Agreed 100%

This is why I use the multi level upgrade trick. For example, spam 10 level 1 fighters. Time the level 2 research so it arrives after the 10th fighter is in the build queue. Start level 3 research while level 1 fighters are still coming off the assembly line. Make sure you're around when level 3 research is scheduled to finish. Start upgrading all the fighters before level 3 research is done. This sets the cost of the upgrade to level 2, but when the upgrade completes, the fighters will be level 3.

The same approach works for a jump from 1 to 4 or higher, but it's more expensive and takes longer. In some cases 1 to 4 makes sense, like when your level 4 tech arrives early, and you don't need the units right away. In other cases 1 to 3 is the only viable option.

With this approach, I almost never build anything except level 1 factories and level 1 units. I can build an entire, leveled up air force with complete 10 stacks of fighters and bombers from 1 level 1 aircraft factory.

Yes. There are 2 things to watch for:

1. The upgrade must complete after the research. If the upgrade is done when the research level is 2, then the unit will be level 2. That means you have to time when you press that upgrade button. Too early, and you get a level 2 unit. Too late, and you're paying for a full price level 3 upgrade.
2. You must have the resources and manpower saved up for a mass upgrade at the right time. Do the math ahead of time. You might have to trade for resources or delay construction/build orders. Upgrading a stack of 20 bombers is not cheap.

Will you need level 3 artillery first, or fighters, or armored cars?

What unit level is opening up on what day?

Are you better off waiting for level 4 fighters or is that too risky?

If you have to use level 1 units and take damage before the upgrade, then you waited too long. You need to have a pretty good idea of how the game will develop days in advance.

z00mz00m wrote:

Yes. There are 2 things to watch for:

1. The upgrade must complete after the research. If the upgrade is done when the research level is 2, then the unit will be level 2. That means you have to time when you press that upgrade button. Too early, and you get a level 2 unit. Too late, and you're paying for a full price level 3 upgrade.
2. You must have the resources and manpower saved up for a mass upgrade at the right time. Do the math ahead of time. You might have to trade for resources or delay construction/build orders. Upgrading a stack of 20 bombers is not cheap.

As you might imagine, this requires planning.

Will you need level 3 artillery first, or fighters, or armored cars?

What unit level is opening up on what day?

Are you better off waiting for level 4 fighters or is that too risky?

If you have to use level 1 units and take damage before the upgrade, then you waited too long. You need to have a pretty good idea of how the game will develop days in advance.

Brando Dilla wrote:

z00mz00m wrote:

Brando Dilla wrote:

If it's war on day 1, and the German player doesn't know what he's doing, you have a chance at survival, if you build the right units, take advantage of opportunities, and stay out of range of the German artillery.

If it's war on day 1, and the German player does know what he's doing, then you're dead meat.

There's a difference.

However, in the first scenario, you can very well win, provided you play efficiently and don't waste units. Here's some pointers:

• France starts with colonies. Germany doesn't. Use this to your advantage.
• It's OK to abandon the Maginot, if those German 8-stacks are getting too close for comfort.
• The German navy is an easy pushover. Use destroyers to defeat their subs, and naval bombers to defeat the rest of their naval units.
• Once you've done that, you can produce battleships and bombard coastal cities like Hamburg to oblivion.
• Produce regular and rocket artillery, so you can harm all forms of units. If you have the resources, maybe produce a railroad gun or two.

I agree with everything you said here, except:

• Spoiler

  Produce regular and rocket artillery, so you can harm all forms of units. If you have the resources, maybe produce a railroad gun or two.

Resources and research slots are precious. Don't waste them on "one or two" things. What are you going to do with one or two RRG? They won't do enough damage to make a difference. But the research cost and research time could be used to level up a stack of regular arty (or planes or tanks), which WILL make a difference.

Focus!

Minimize the variety of units (and factories) you invest in. Only research something you need, and need in large quantities. If you don't need it, then ignore it.

I like Railroad guns because A) They have the farthest range of all ranged units and B) They are especially affective against armoured units.

But as I stated earlier, I never play as France, so I won't know how they would work in this particular scenario.

Carking the 6th wrote:

So for a scenario let’s say I am upgrading a stack of ten level level one infantry, and want to get them to level three instead. Let’s assume it takes two hours for them to upgrade to level two. First I make sure I have plenty of resources, enough to upgrade the units by the time I want to. I wait for the research to be an hour from completion. Then I upgrade the units, which will take two hours. In a hour I finish infantry level three research, and in another I have infantry level three rather than two, saving time and resources.

Exactly right.

You can time your whole army around these upgrade chains. Especially powerful when a unit research arrives early for a doctrine, like Axis subs level 3 on day 4. You can quickly produce a superior force that outclasses anything the enemy can deal with. Use this technology advantage to sink their navy, or shoot down their air force, which can win you the war.

z00mz00m wrote:

Carking the 6th wrote:

So for a scenario let’s say I am upgrading a stack of ten level level one infantry, and want to get them to level three instead. Let’s assume it takes two hours for them to upgrade to level two. First I make sure I have plenty of resources, enough to upgrade the units by the time I want to. I wait for the research to be an hour from completion. Then I upgrade the units, which will take two hours. In a hour I finish infantry level three research, and in another I have infantry level three rather than two, saving time and resources.

Exactly right.

You can time your whole army around these upgrade chains. Especially powerful when a unit research arrives early for a doctrine, like Axis subs level 3 on day 4. You can quickly produce a superior force that outclasses anything the enemy can deal with. Use this technology advantage to sink their navy, or shoot down their air force, which can win you the war.