Tanks lose half their strength in a city. Was the enemy fortified as well, maybe?
4 Apr 2016, 16:51
LF Explaination or anti-tank vs light tank in city
I am looking for some clarification on battle mechanics and the range of variability i can expect from the "random factors". Many of you have seen much larger random factors than i document below- but bear with me as I am just trying to understand them better, not change them or complain.
After a surprise attack on me by my neighbor, I sent 4 light tanks on a multi province end run to his capital over night. I chose a route that was fields except for the capital city. My goal was to be able to see what units were in the capital in time to decide to turn back or not, but they arrived faster than the time estimate probably due to the portions of territories that changed into my control removing the speed reduction. I saw a question mark in the capital at one point and I thought it was worth continuing one so I could see what they were, but I did not check back in time. When i checked, my light tanks were engaged with a single anti-tank in the city. There is no fort.
4 light tanks lev 1 with 68 total hit points and around 8 strength going in changed to 34 HP and 4 strength in the city. The Anti tank lev 1 had 10 HP and 7 defensive strength vs armor.
Initial attack result: My light tanks were reduced to 24 HP and his anti tank was reduced to just 9 HP. He got 3 extra damage than projected and I got 3 less. That is a huge percentage swing for a random factor.
The next round I killed 2 hp and he killed 6hp (Remaining: 18 hp for light tanks vs 7 hp on anti-tank)
The next round I killed 1 hp and he killed 6 hp (Remaining: 12 hp for light tanks vs 6 hp on anti-tank)
The next round I Killed 2 hp and he killed 8 hp (Remaining: 4 hp for light tanks vs 4 hp on anti-tank)
The next round I Killed 0 hp and he killed 1 hp (Remaining: 3 hp for light tanks vs 4 hp on anti-tank)
I have no hope of winning now. How can he consistently do more damage than would be predicted from a weakened Anti Tank, while I continue to do less
except round 4) Has anyone been able to put any side boards on what we can expect from the random factor? Are variability seemingly larger in small battles like this one? Does the variability also favor units with advantages and multiply the penalty for units with terrain penalties? Any info or even sharing of similar scenarios, theories, or anecdotal info would be appreciated
The bottom line is that I learned not to make that attack if I can avoid it, but in this case the reward for succeeding was too tempting.
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16 Replies
4 Apr 2016, 16:55
The cities are urban territories, and tanks are quite ineffective in urban territory.Quasi-duck wrote:
Tanks lose half their strength in a city. Was the enemy fortified as well, maybe?
"I came, I saw, I conquered" Written in a report to Rome 47 B.C., after conquering Pharnaces at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days; as quoted in Life of Caesar by Plutarch; reported to have been inscribed on one of the decorated wagons in the Pontic triumph, in Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Julius, by Suetonius.
"Alea iacta est" Gaius Julius Caesar.
4 Apr 2016, 16:57
I said that.Maximilien wrote:
The cities are urban territories, and tanks are quite ineffective in urban territory.
4 Apr 2016, 16:58
The fortifications reduce damage...Quasi-duck wrote:
I said that.Maximilien wrote:
The cities are urban territories, and tanks are quite ineffective in urban territory.
"I came, I saw, I conquered" Written in a report to Rome 47 B.C., after conquering Pharnaces at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days; as quoted in Life of Caesar by Plutarch; reported to have been inscribed on one of the decorated wagons in the Pontic triumph, in Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Julius, by Suetonius.
"Alea iacta est" Gaius Julius Caesar.
4 Apr 2016, 17:01
I know, I was asking if the city had one.Maximilien wrote:
The fortifications reduce damage...
4 Apr 2016, 17:03
Perfect.Quasi-duck wrote:
I know, I was asking if the city had one.Maximilien wrote:
The fortifications reduce damage...
"I came, I saw, I conquered" Written in a report to Rome 47 B.C., after conquering Pharnaces at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days; as quoted in Life of Caesar by Plutarch; reported to have been inscribed on one of the decorated wagons in the Pontic triumph, in Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Julius, by Suetonius.
"Alea iacta est" Gaius Julius Caesar.
4 Apr 2016, 19:34
Thanks Max and Quasi, No the city did not have any fortifications.Maximilien wrote:
Perfect.Quasi-duck wrote:
I know, I was asking if the city had one.Maximilien wrote:
The fortifications reduce damage...
I realize that tanks are less effective in cities, but I was under the impression that was entirely accounted for with the initial %50 reduction in damage and HP. If I would have been able to do the 4 hps damage to the anti-tank and he only did 7 damage to my tanks on first contact- the outcome of the battle would have been in my favor.
Does anyone have facts or anecdotal evidence as to what range of random variable we experience, if there are hidden penalties/bonuses, and if smaller forces experience larger variables than larger or diversified armies? We already know and agree that tanks do not do well in cities, so no opinions are necessary on that, but please share opinions on random factors or effects of hidden bonuses/penalties.
4 Apr 2016, 19:36
No problemo! In my experiences, the random factor does not seem to have much effect.
4 Apr 2016, 19:40
Hello!FinnDaddy wrote:
Thanks Max and Quasi, No the city did not have any fortifications.I realize that tanks are less effective in cities, but I was under the impression that was entirely accounted for with the initial %50 reduction in damage and HP. If I would have been able to do the 4 hps damage to the anti-tank and he only did 7 damage to my tanks on first contact- the outcome of the battle would have been in my favor.
Does anyone have facts or anecdotal evidence as to what range of random variable we experience, if there are hidden penalties/bonuses, and if smaller forces experience larger variables than larger or diversified armies? We already know and agree that tanks do not do well in cities, so no opinions are necessary on that, but please share opinions on random factors or effects of hidden bonuses/penalties.
A battle in the urban field depends on various factors,I recommend that before attacking a city, you blasted the city with artillery. The tanks are ineffective in urban territory!
A greeting.
"I came, I saw, I conquered" Written in a report to Rome 47 B.C., after conquering Pharnaces at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days; as quoted in Life of Caesar by Plutarch; reported to have been inscribed on one of the decorated wagons in the Pontic triumph, in Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Julius, by Suetonius.
"Alea iacta est" Gaius Julius Caesar.
4 Apr 2016, 19:53
If you want to capture a city intact, a better tactic is circling Tactical Bombers over it until the enemies are dead. Unless there is AA units there.Maximilien wrote:
A battle in the urban field depends on various factors,I recommend that before attacking a city, you blasted the city with artillery. The tanks are ineffective in urban territory!
4 Apr 2016, 19:58
Correct! The style of the Red Army.Quasi-duck wrote:
If you want to capture a city intact, a better tactic is circling Tactical Bombers over it until the enemies are dead. Unless there is AA units there.Maximilien wrote:
A battle in the urban field depends on various factors,I recommend that before attacking a city, you blasted the city with artillery. The tanks are ineffective in urban territory!
"I came, I saw, I conquered" Written in a report to Rome 47 B.C., after conquering Pharnaces at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days; as quoted in Life of Caesar by Plutarch; reported to have been inscribed on one of the decorated wagons in the Pontic triumph, in Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Julius, by Suetonius.
"Alea iacta est" Gaius Julius Caesar.
4 Apr 2016, 20:05
The Soviets do love a good heavy artillery barrage too though. Nothing like Katyusha's and 152mm shells.Maximilien wrote:
Correct! The style of the Red Army.
4 Apr 2016, 20:07
Correct.Quasi-duck wrote:
The Soviets do love a good heavy artillery barrage too though. Nothing like Katyusha's and 152mm shells.Maximilien wrote:
Correct! The style of the Red Army.
"I came, I saw, I conquered" Written in a report to Rome 47 B.C., after conquering Pharnaces at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days; as quoted in Life of Caesar by Plutarch; reported to have been inscribed on one of the decorated wagons in the Pontic triumph, in Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Julius, by Suetonius.
"Alea iacta est" Gaius Julius Caesar.
4 Apr 2016, 20:21
AT is classified as Armor therefore your tanks would do 1.5 x4 so 6 but because they were fighting in a city they would only do 3 HP worth of damage to the Anti Tank, including the random factor that should account for the discrepancy you pointed out
4 Apr 2016, 20:24
No, it is classified as infantry but built in the armour tab.ShadowHawk5 wrote:
AT is classified as Armor
4 Apr 2016, 20:41
Correct.Quasi-duck wrote:
No, it is classified as infantry but built in the armour tab.ShadowHawk5 wrote:
AT is classified as Armor
"I came, I saw, I conquered" Written in a report to Rome 47 B.C., after conquering Pharnaces at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days; as quoted in Life of Caesar by Plutarch; reported to have been inscribed on one of the decorated wagons in the Pontic triumph, in Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Julius, by Suetonius.
"Alea iacta est" Gaius Julius Caesar.
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