Mahanian doctrine in a game with no transports

Alfred Thayer Mahan's work was a huge influence on American, Japanese, and British (notably not French) doctrine during and prior to both World Wars, and German doctrine before the First World War. As such it is probably relevant to a game set in WWII.

Mahanian doctrine can be summed up effectively in a single quote by Sir Walter Raleigh; "For whosoever commands the sea commands the trade; whosoever commands the trade of the world commands the riches of the world, and consequently the world itself."

From what I understand of it, Mahan argued that a great nation is a nation that has control of the sea, because of the above. Of course, in (relative) peacetime, merchantmen must be protected by one's own navy from commerce raiders, not by escort but by making the seas safe.

But because in Call of War the sea belongs to no one, the movement of ships may be freely conducted (in theory).

During a war (and thus most applicable to CoW), ships serve for the conveyance of troops and supplies when operating an expeditionary force overseas, as well as for the usual purposes of commerce. Obviously also naval ships not designed to fight other ships, such as landing ships, minelayers, tenders, etc. must be allowed to conduct their duties unmolested.

The ships most likely to be attacking yours are commerce raiders. In CoW this almost always means submarines or rarely cruisers and destroyers. You can send large numbers of anti-submarine fleets to destroy the enemy's raiders, but it's much easier when the submarines can't even get there in the first place. To do this, you need command of the sea.

As such command of the sea is necessary in order to allow the safety of the merchant fleet, and in war, transports and unarmed ships. Ultimately, warships exist to facilitate the movement of trading ships of a country and its allies, and prevent that of its enemies.

To allow command of the sea:

  • The enemy will try to destroy vulnerable ships (in CoW, convoys) in areas where interests exist, and hence where trade or fighting occurs. They must be protected.
  • Because the enemy also requires trade and desires the sea for the same reasons, enemy commerce must be disrupted by blockade or by raiding. If the transports are critical to their plan (or in real life, if they can't resupply goods) this is what wins wars.
  • One's own commerce raiders and commerce raider destroyers (preferably armoured cruisers and destroyers) can be threatened by the enemy battlefleet.
  • To prevent it from effectively defending its own convoys and commerce raiders, and destroying one's own, the enemy's battlefleet must be also destroyed, emasculated, or denied presence in said areas to prevent their effective defence or even projection into own areas.
  • One’s own navy must be able to carry out both the protection and attack of convoys and the incapacitation of the enemy battlefleet, and project power to where it is needed.
So, during war, the navy needs a) a means to destroy the enemy’s battlefleet, and to blockade, b) commerce raiders. Depending on the nature of the situation, some of these may be prioritised more highly than others. Mahan validates the modern battleship although it predated his work by 1 year.

To destroy the enemy's battlefleet and to blockade, either battleships/carriers can be used, or large numbers of submarine and destroyer spam. I prefer the former for battle as it has the ability to bombard coasts also, but the latter for

How to win a war

Call of War is a game of occupation and expansionism wherein the sole goal of the economy is to enlarge the army (an inversion of fukoku kyōhei) whose sole goal is in turn to further expansion and retention of territory. As such the only credible reason for anything other than warships to be moving through one's own seaspace is as part of an invasion, or reinforcement for existing colonies which is ultimately the same thing.

In order to gain command of the sea to incapacitate the enemy at the start of a war, its battlefleet must be destroyed (as at Tsushima, Trafalgar, or Leyte Gulf), crippled (as at Pearl Harbour), or contained (as at Port Arthur), in order to allow the remainder of the fleet to clear the seas of enemy commerce raiders, and then in turn before either one's own convoys can move safely or enemy convoys be destroyed. To do so, a battlefleet consisting either of battleships or of aircraft carriers (which insofar as they are designed to engage other capital ships during pitched battles, can be viewed as an alternative to them) can be used.

Battlefleets can be destroyed by large numbers of smaller ships such as submarines, if the cost of a battlefleet is prohibitive. If unaccompanied by destroyers this is generally the best way to attack them. They can also be easily defeated by naval bombers operating from aircraft carriers (this is somewhat unrealistic and Bytro should remedy the battleship's vulnerability to aerial attack). A surprise attack of this form at the start of a war is the way to go if this is done. The next best way is a Tsushima-style gunnery engagement, and the best after that is to bottle it up in port (which requires an active fleet to stay there and not be able to do much else).

If the enemy's battlefleet is existent and intact, blockading it ought to be carried out using battleships (or their equivalent the carrier) collect off the coast in order to prevent the battlefleet from breaking out of port.

The incapacitation of the enemy's battlefleet does not guarantee victory (as the Japanese learnt the hard way in WW2); victory needs to be exploited. In a game with, as said, no cargo ships, you can do this by a) clearing out his commerce raiders with your flying squadron and/or anti-submarine forces, b) attacking his own convoys, c) landing an invasion force on his soil, whether in his core provinces, or in a colony that has been cut off by your blockade, or d) forcing him to negotiate favourable peace terms.

a) & b) Once the enemy’s fleet is rendered useless, one’s own use of the waters can be conducted more safely. Ships can be now used to blockade the enemy, or attack his convoys , with impunity, as well as one’s own transports to be used.

If the enemy does not have command of the sea, but still poses a threat to convoys (e.g. by cruisers or submarines) escorts may still be needed.

c) The haitus in his fighting ability can be exploited to buy time for an invasion of his colonies (as Japan used to capture the East Indies). It can also be used to attack core provinces if enough force can be rallied.

Aeroplanes are interesting toys but of no military value.
— Marshal Foch
A pretty mechanical toy [...] the war will never be won by such machines.
— Lord Kitchener, on tanks

4 Replies

Lord Crayfish wrote:

Alfred Thayer Mahan's work was a huge influence on American, Japanese, and British (notably not French) doctrine during and prior to both World Wars, and German doctrine before the First World War. As such it is probably relevant to a game set in WWII.

Mahanian doctrine can be summed up effectively in a single quote by Sir Walter Raleigh; "For whosoever commands the sea commands the trade; whosoever commands the trade of the world commands the riches of the world, and consequently the world itself."

From what I understand of it, Mahan argued that a great nation is a nation that has control of the sea, because of the above. Of course, in (relative) peacetime, merchantmen must be protected by one's own navy from commerce raiders, not by escort but by making the seas safe.

But because in Call of War the sea belongs to no one, the movement of ships may be freely conducted (in theory).

During a war (and thus most applicable to CoW), ships serve for the conveyance of troops and supplies when operating an expeditionary force overseas, as well as for the usual purposes of commerce. Obviously also naval ships not designed to fight other ships, such as landing ships, minelayers, tenders, etc. must be allowed to conduct their duties unmolested.

The ships most likely to be attacking yours are commerce raiders. In CoW this almost always means submarines or rarely cruisers and destroyers. You can send large numbers of anti-submarine fleets to destroy the enemy's raiders, but it's much easier when the submarines can't even get there in the first place. To do this, you need command of the sea.

As such command of the sea is necessary in order to allow the safety of the merchant fleet, and in war, transports and unarmed ships. Ultimately, warships exist to facilitate the movement of trading ships of a country and its allies, and prevent that of its enemies.

To allow command of the sea:

  • The enemy will try to destroy vulnerable ships (in CoW, convoys) in areas where interests exist, and hence where trade or fighting occurs. They must be protected.
  • Because the enemy also requires trade and desires the sea for the same reasons, enemy commerce must be disrupted by blockade or by raiding. If the transports are critical to their plan (or in real life, if they can't resupply goods) this is what wins wars.
  • One's own commerce raiders and commerce raider destroyers (preferably armoured cruisers and destroyers) can be threatened by the enemy battlefleet.
  • To prevent it from effectively defending its own convoys and commerce raiders, and destroying one's own, the enemy's battlefleet must be also destroyed, emasculated, or denied presence in said areas to prevent their effective defence or even projection into own areas.
  • One’s own navy must be able to carry out both the protection and attack of convoys and the incapacitation of the enemy battlefleet, and project power to where it is needed.
So, during war, the navy needs a) a means to destroy the enemy’s battlefleet, and to blockade, b) commerce raiders. Depending on the nature of the situation, some of these may be prioritised more highly than others. Mahan validates the modern battleship although it predated his work by 1 year.

To destroy the enemy's battlefleet and to blockade, either battleships/carriers can be used, or large numbers of submarine and destroyer spam. I prefer the former for battle as it has the ability to bombard coasts also, but the latter for

How to win a war

Call of War is a game of occupation and expansionism wherein the sole goal of the economy is to enlarge the army (an inversion of fukoku kyōhei) whose sole goal is in turn to further expansion and retention of territory. As such the only credible reason for anything other than warships to be moving through one's own seaspace is as part of an invasion, or reinforcement for existing colonies which is ultimately the same thing.

In order to gain command of the sea to incapacitate the enemy at the start of a war, its battlefleet must be destroyed (as at Tsushima, Trafalgar, or Leyte Gulf), crippled (as at Pearl Harbour), or contained (as at Port Arthur), in order to allow the remainder of the fleet to clear the seas of enemy commerce raiders, and then in turn before either one's own convoys can move safely or enemy convoys be destroyed. To do so, a battlefleet consisting either of battleships or of aircraft carriers (which insofar as they are designed to engage other capital ships during pitched battles, can be viewed as an alternative to them) can be used.

Battlefleets can be destroyed by large numbers of smaller ships such as submarines, if the cost of a battlefleet is prohibitive. If unaccompanied by destroyers this is generally the best way to attack them. They can also be easily defeated by naval bombers operating from aircraft carriers (this is somewhat unrealistic and Bytro should remedy the battleship's vulnerability to aerial attack). A surprise attack of this form at the start of a war is the way to go if this is done. The next best way is a Tsushima-style gunnery engagement, and the best after that is to bottle it up in port (which requires an active fleet to stay there and not be able to do much else).

If the enemy's battlefleet is existent and intact, blockading it ought to be carried out using battleships (or their equivalent the carrier) collect off the coast in order to prevent the battlefleet from breaking out of port.

The incapacitation of the enemy's battlefleet does not guarantee victory (as the Japanese learnt the hard way in WW2); victory needs to be exploited. In a game with, as said, no cargo ships, you can do this by a) clearing out his commerce raiders with your flying squadron and/or anti-submarine forces, b) attacking his own convoys, c) landing an invasion force on his soil, whether in his core provinces, or in a colony that has been cut off by your blockade, or d) forcing him to negotiate favourable peace terms.

a) & b) Once the enemy’s fleet is rendered useless, one’s own use of the waters can be conducted more safely. Ships can be now used to blockade the enemy, or attack his convoys , with impunity, as well as one’s own transports to be used.

If the enemy does not have command of the sea, but still poses a threat to convoys (e.g. by cruisers or submarines) escorts may still be needed.

c) The haitus in his fighting ability can be exploited to buy time for an invasion of his colonies (as Japan used to capture the East Indies). It can also be used to attack core provinces if enough force can be rallied.

Informative but why is it under Suggestions and Criticism?

I think that from this thread you can extract a few ideas to add and improve the current mechanics with respect to the sea:

-The vulnerability of battleships against aircraft.

-The importance of controlling the sea in a possible update by improving trade and carrying out marine replenishment routes.

-A control of the sea similar to that of the provinces on land dividing it, something like in HOI4

The Warsaw Pact wrote:

Lord Crayfish wrote:

Alfred Thayer Mahan's work was a huge influence on American, Japanese, and British (notably not French) doctrine during and prior to both World Wars, and German doctrine before the First World War. As such it is probably relevant to a game set in WWII.

Mahanian doctrine can be summed up effectively in a single quote by Sir Walter Raleigh; "For whosoever commands the sea commands the trade; whosoever commands the trade of the world commands the riches of the world, and consequently the world itself."

From what I understand of it, Mahan argued that a great nation is a nation that has control of the sea, because of the above. Of course, in (relative) peacetime, merchantmen must be protected by one's own navy from commerce raiders, not by escort but by making the seas safe.

But because in Call of War the sea belongs to no one, the movement of ships may be freely conducted (in theory).

During a war (and thus most applicable to CoW), ships serve for the conveyance of troops and supplies when operating an expeditionary force overseas, as well as for the usual purposes of commerce. Obviously also naval ships not designed to fight other ships, such as landing ships, minelayers, tenders, etc. must be allowed to conduct their duties unmolested.

The ships most likely to be attacking yours are commerce raiders. In CoW this almost always means submarines or rarely cruisers and destroyers. You can send large numbers of anti-submarine fleets to destroy the enemy's raiders, but it's much easier when the submarines can't even get there in the first place. To do this, you need command of the sea.

As such command of the sea is necessary in order to allow the safety of the merchant fleet, and in war, transports and unarmed ships. Ultimately, warships exist to facilitate the movement of trading ships of a country and its allies, and prevent that of its enemies.

To allow command of the sea:

  • The enemy will try to destroy vulnerable ships (in CoW, convoys) in areas where interests exist, and hence where trade or fighting occurs. They must be protected.
  • Because the enemy also requires trade and desires the sea for the same reasons, enemy commerce must be disrupted by blockade or by raiding. If the transports are critical to their plan (or in real life, if they can't resupply goods) this is what wins wars.
  • One's own commerce raiders and commerce raider destroyers (preferably armoured cruisers and destroyers) can be threatened by the enemy battlefleet.
  • To prevent it from effectively defending its own convoys and commerce raiders, and destroying one's own, the enemy's battlefleet must be also destroyed, emasculated, or denied presence in said areas to prevent their effective defence or even projection into own areas.
  • One’s own navy must be able to carry out both the protection and attack of convoys and the incapacitation of the enemy battlefleet, and project power to where it is needed.
So, during war, the navy needs a) a means to destroy the enemy’s battlefleet, and to blockade, b) commerce raiders. Depending on the nature of the situation, some of these may be prioritised more highly than others. Mahan validates the modern battleship although it predated his work by 1 year.

To destroy the enemy's battlefleet and to blockade, either battleships/carriers can be used, or large numbers of submarine and destroyer spam. I prefer the former for battle as it has the ability to bombard coasts also, but the latter for

How to win a war

Call of War is a game of occupation and expansionism wherein the sole goal of the economy is to enlarge the army (an inversion of fukoku kyōhei) whose sole goal is in turn to further expansion and retention of territory. As such the only credible reason for anything other than warships to be moving through one's own seaspace is as part of an invasion, or reinforcement for existing colonies which is ultimately the same thing.

In order to gain command of the sea to incapacitate the enemy at the start of a war, its battlefleet must be destroyed (as at Tsushima, Trafalgar, or Leyte Gulf), crippled (as at Pearl Harbour), or contained (as at Port Arthur), in order to allow the remainder of the fleet to clear the seas of enemy commerce raiders, and then in turn before either one's own convoys can move safely or enemy convoys be destroyed. To do so, a battlefleet consisting either of battleships or of aircraft carriers (which insofar as they are designed to engage other capital ships during pitched battles, can be viewed as an alternative to them) can be used.

Battlefleets can be destroyed by large numbers of smaller ships such as submarines, if the cost of a battlefleet is prohibitive. If unaccompanied by destroyers this is generally the best way to attack them. They can also be easily defeated by naval bombers operating from aircraft carriers (this is somewhat unrealistic and Bytro should remedy the battleship's vulnerability to aerial attack). A surprise attack of this form at the start of a war is the way to go if this is done. The next best way is a Tsushima-style gunnery engagement, and the best after that is to bottle it up in port (which requires an active fleet to stay there and not be able to do much else).

If the enemy's battlefleet is existent and intact, blockading it ought to be carried out using battleships (or their equivalent the carrier) collect off the coast in order to prevent the battlefleet from breaking out of port.

The incapacitation of the enemy's battlefleet does not guarantee victory (as the Japanese learnt the hard way in WW2); victory needs to be exploited. In a game with, as said, no cargo ships, you can do this by a) clearing out his commerce raiders with your flying squadron and/or anti-submarine forces, b) attacking his own convoys, c) landing an invasion force on his soil, whether in his core provinces, or in a colony that has been cut off by your blockade, or d) forcing him to negotiate favourable peace terms.

a) & b) Once the enemy’s fleet is rendered useless, one’s own use of the waters can be conducted more safely. Ships can be now used to blockade the enemy, or attack his convoys , with impunity, as well as one’s own transports to be used.

If the enemy does not have command of the sea, but still poses a threat to convoys (e.g. by cruisers or submarines) escorts may still be needed.

c) The haitus in his fighting ability can be exploited to buy time for an invasion of his colonies (as Japan used to capture the East Indies). It can also be used to attack core provinces if enough force can be rallied.

Informative but why is it under Suggestions and Criticism?
Because I can't index.
Aeroplanes are interesting toys but of no military value.
— Marshal Foch
A pretty mechanical toy [...] the war will never be won by such machines.
— Lord Kitchener, on tanks

renzitormix2020 wrote:

I think that from this thread you can extract a few ideas to add and improve the current mechanics with respect to the sea:

-The vulnerability of battleships against aircraft.

-The importance of controlling the sea in a possible update by improving trade and carrying out marine replenishment routes.

-A control of the sea similar to that of the provinces on land dividing it, something like in HOI4

Yeah that's why I made it. Maybe the devs can learn.

Also a major use of battleships by Britain, Japan and USA in WW2 was to protect carriers (particularly the more vulnerable American ones) from aeroplanes. The main reason PoW was sunk to Japanese planes was because she had sailed across the world at high speed and was tired out by lack of repair (she had the best anti-air of any ship then)

Thing is, with the last point, sea belongs to nobody according to Mahan, so need to fight harder to enforce influence. For example the way to control the Sea of Japan is put ships commanding Tsushima, the Tsugaru Strait, and Sakhalin.

Aeroplanes are interesting toys but of no military value.
— Marshal Foch
A pretty mechanical toy [...] the war will never be won by such machines.
— Lord Kitchener, on tanks

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