New Unit - Reconaissance plane

Hm. What exactly isn't fulfilling enough with interceptors to make a recon plane necessary ?

Also there is the problem with research. Don't forget lvl 1 units start at pre-war era. During that time as well as the whole WW2, stealth planes did not exist (and no Mosquitoes are not stealth planes just in case).

Also there is a whole logical error here : you say the plane's stealth is warranted by its very low altitude. Good, that's how SOME planes operated then. However, if this were the case how come your provinces couldn't detect a plane 7 km above the ground, but could detect a tank unit as soon as it crosses the border ? Shouldn't then all troops be given a "hide" function, for example when in a forest ?

This is just an illustration : i don't see how a WW2 plane could be 'stealthy'. None of them were. If the logic here is that "it takes time to sight and then report a plane to HQ" then the whole game and its mechanics don't make sense, as i've demonstrated.

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

Hm. What exactly isn't fulfilling enough with interceptors to make a recon plane necessary ?

Because the Bytro Labs programmers have screwed up the patrol function for reconnaissance purposes with their latest change. Read here:

> > > > Controlled Airspace < < < <

Using aircraft on patrol to recon other countries will now automatically initiate a state of war.

Horrible @#$% change.

MontanaBB wrote:

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

Hm. What exactly isn't fulfilling enough with interceptors to make a recon plane necessary ?

Why, you ask?

Because the Bytro Labs programmers have screwed up the patrol function for reconnaissance purposes with their latest change. Read here:

> > > > Controlled Airspace < < < <

Using aircraft on patrol to recon other countries will now automatically initiate a state of war.

Horrible @#$% change.

A country's plane can't just cross into another country, you know. This is an actual act of aggression. Also keep in mind this is WW2, where this would have caused considerable tension.

I realize it takes away from us a practical way to gain quick intel. But to be honest I always thought it was kinda silly how your planes could just waltz into a country unpunished.

Also if that still somehow gave a reason for a recon alternative, that doesn't explain why it should be stealthy.

Here's a better suggestion : a new unit which is a hot-air balloon with "totally scientific balloon for totally scientific research" written on it, that could seamlessly cross a country's border unbothered and thus report valuable intel on enemy positions.

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

Hm. What exactly isn't fulfilling enough with interceptors to make a recon plane necessary ?

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

Also there is a whole logical error here : you say the plane's stealth is warranted by its very low altitude. Good, that's how SOME planes operated then. However, if this were the case how come your provinces couldn't detect a plane 7 km above the ground, but could detect a tank unit as soon as it crosses the border ? Shouldn't then all troops be given a "hide" function, for example when in a forest ?

This is just an illustration : i don't see how a WW2 plane could be 'stealthy'. None of them were. If the logic here is that "it takes time to sight and then report a plane to HQ" then the whole game and its mechanics don't make sense, as i've demonstrated.

Secondly, no, every unit should not be given a hide function. This is already partially granted by the higher stats of most units in defense. So no.

And I see very well how a WW2 could be stealthy. Fly it at 7km high. This is exactly what air wings such as Kampfgeschwader 200 did, long range high alt reconaissance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfgeschwader_200

darksoul111 wrote:

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

Hm. What exactly isn't fulfilling enough with interceptors to make a recon plane necessary ?

The new update.

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

Also there is a whole logical error here : you say the plane's stealth is warranted by its very low altitude. Good, that's how SOME planes operated then. However, if this were the case how come your provinces couldn't detect a plane 7 km above the ground, but could detect a tank unit as soon as it crosses the border ? Shouldn't then all troops be given a "hide" function, for example when in a forest ?

This is just an illustration : i don't see how a WW2 plane could be 'stealthy'. None of them were. If the logic here is that "it takes time to sight and then report a plane to HQ" then the whole game and its mechanics don't make sense, as i've demonstrated.

I'm saying it's stealth would be warranted by its very high altitudes. Your provinces can't spot a plane crossing your border because it is going at 800km/h at 7km of altitude. Pretty hard to see, especially when it's a very slim aircraft.Secondly, no, every unit should not be given a hide function. This is already partially granted by the higher stats of most units in defense. So no.

And I see very well how a WW2 could be stealthy. Fly it at 7km high. This is exactly what air wings such as Kampfgeschwader 200 did, long range high alt reconaissance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfgeschwader_200

Now, let's analyze the practicality of the idea : the problem is that no plane fits your idea's requirements. The only potential contender I can think of is the Mosquito, which seems to fit the description. Yet while evasive, the Mosquito was never stealthy, let alone undetectable.

A stealth uni like a sub works because outside from boats, there are no random detection equipments in the sea (though that would come during the Cold War). But a plane has to take radars, if anything, into consideration. Yet no plane on this good earth could manage to stay undetected from radar in WW2. If we assume radar concludently exists in CoW, then stealth for planes can't be a feature.

And finally , there is still the problem of the roster. I picked out the Mosquito for you, but which planes do you chose on the German, or Russian side ? There are no good candidates, even KG 200, which you reference yourself, ended up using american strategic bombers for their high altitude missions because their own planes wouldn't fly high enough.

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

A country's plane can't just cross into another country, you know. This is an actual act of aggression. Also keep in mind this is WW2, where this would have caused considerable tension.

Keeping in mind, of course, that no-one yet had a viable radar early warning system in 1939, and the Brits were hurriedly putting one together that would play a key role in the coming Battle of Britain. And, in peace time, no-one had the technological ability to distinguish military from civilian aircraft using the rudimentary radar then in its infancy. By the time interceptors could be scrambled, if a single small plane was even noticed, the recon plane was gone.

During the war, the Allies flew most of their high-level photo-recon missions with unarmed, stripped-down versions of the Spitfire and P-38 which could fly higher and faster than virtually any available interceptors. By the time their presence was detected and reported, they were gone.

And I note for the record: I am unaware of a single instance in world history, where a major power went to war over an airspace violation by a spy plane. If you're aware of a single instance, please share it. Spy planes may occasionally get shot down, diplomatic protests may be made, but no-one declares war over it.

Again, good point. I don't know either if aerial recon has ever been a casus belli ; i'm too lazy to research it but tbh i wouldn't be surprised if it happened considering the ridiculously smaller things countries have gone to war for.

But then again, you said it yourself : recon planes, while evasive, were not invisible. We're talking about making them undetectable (to a certain point), which is an entirely different issue from what you're trying to back up with historical examples. While i see what you're trying to prove, the examples are the wrong ones in any case.

The real gripe I have with this suggestion is more regarding its use against AI :

I don't think there is a need for automatic war against a player as soon as his plane crosses my border. Of course , if that happens, I'll be very cautious, but I probably won't go to war for that.

The problem is, however, that you can't make an AI country to react the same way. You can't implement an AI that goes through the same thought process of suspicion as a player goes ; yet there is a need for an adequate reaction, as i'm sure you'll agree. It's just idiotic to have the AI country let you patrol his skies at your leisure.

The only possible correction to that, then, is to make it declare war automatically ; there is no other minimal alternative that'll be good enough and still simulate the country's being wary of your constant spying over him. So as you can see, while in reality air recon was a common (and tolerated as you seem to think ? Don't know but let's assume it) practice, the need for an adequate automatic response creates the need for an automatic-war-setting from a realism and developer's standpoint.

If you want a very fast plane that can do recon fast and then retreat before being caught, I guess there's the rocket plane for that.

As a whole, I do agree air recon should not (necessarily) be a cause of war. The planes should be definitely (tried to) be shot down though. And in any case it needs to be there regarding AI countries or otherwise there'll be a complete lack of possible (and necessary !) reaction on their part.

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

And finally , there is still the problem of the roster. I picked out the Mosquito for you, but which planes do you chose on the German, or Russian side ? There are no good candidates, even KG 200, which you reference yourself, ended up using american strategic bombers for their high altitude missions because their own planes wouldn't fly high enough.

Happy?

@VIRVCOBRV

I'll give you that at least, I guess a kind of long-range, fast recon plane could come in handy handy, and I could see that being implemented. I'm firmly against making it stealthy however. Maybe one could make it so that regular interceptors are not efficient against it (high altitude) but rocket fighters are. And it would have to be cheap to be even used in the first place given the lack of originality i often come across in CoW armies.

darksoul111 wrote:

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

And finally , there is still the problem of the roster. I picked out the Mosquito for you, but which planes do you chose on the German, or Russian side ? There are no good candidates, even KG 200, which you reference yourself, ended up using american strategic bombers for their high altitude missions because their own planes wouldn't fly high enough.

Modified Bf 110s for Germany (could be replaced by Ju 86s if needed), Tu-2s for soviets, Blenheims/modified mosquitoes with max. height of 11km, and heavy bombers such as B17s/B24s for america.

Happy?

@VIRVCOBRV

@VIRVCOBRV

VIRVCOBRV wrote:

That's cool, but again none of those planes were ever undetectable. Again, I'm for making the strategical bomber much less vulnerable to fighter planes, if we assume it files to high for interceptors to reach it (but then rocket planes could). That could fill the gap for a hard to catch recon plane.

And yes, I maintained that they should be stealthy. Or at least that they should be able to bypass the rule of "no air space breaching". But let's be honest, it will be much more fun if they are stealthy unless detected 50km away. There is actually a component of looking for the enemy patrolling planes. I think that's pretty fun.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. I suspect you actually want to destroy every remaining bit of trust you could have in your neighbor in this game by making everyone paranoid

@VIRVCOBRV how did you guess

I would say no for these reasons :

1- the experience in CoN proved that even with drones, able to get inside enemy territory without causing war, most players are no longer using air units to gather intel, in fact, they don't gather intel at all, drones are not stealth untis until a advanced level so they can be spotted, + they are considered to be a waist of time and resources, so people just mobilize big armies and hope for the best

2- realistically speaking, no "spy aircraft" existed during WW2, by spy aircraft I mean a plane especially designed for intelligence purposes, they were adapting existing planes for such missions ( we can consider that when an interceptor is sent for a patrol, he is equipped with cameras and stuff for that mission). balloons ? people stopped using them since WW1 guess why ? because aircrafts could do a better job

on the other hand, no stealth technology was available during WW2 so how can an interceptor/bomber ... be detected and cause war, while a " spy-plane" just goes unnoticed in the same conditions ?

3- I am sure that Bytro labs will undo this update, so let's not give them reasons so that they can keep it

(Bytro : you said people hate our new update ? well let's give them spy airplanes so they will have no reason to complain!)

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