New upgrades - criticism

You do know that everyone has the same issue, right?

In fact, I would like to see economic management becoming even harder. And I dont mean the grain situation on large maps - thats just lazy programming.

Rather, make it more like the old Bytro game Supremacy, where there are also resources in the red when you start. It forces more trading and a more active stockmarket (which is usually dead after day 10)

@'miech

have u tried the 25 player historical map? very scarce resources, and some countries do start in the red.

Well in my own personal opinion, I like playing this game to conquer, fight and even in some cases just sit back and defend... when it's all about the food, oil and economics and you can't go anywhere or do anything your pretty much playing a game of FarmVille/ Monoply LMFAO

Don't get me wrong, I like those aspects of the game, it makes it more realistic, but I don't want to bend over backwards and wait a week to start building my army.

yes, it takes weeks to build an army, these rounds last months, i dont understand why you want to be able to build stuff faster, this is a pick up and put down game you check up on every few hours, theres a reason you can queue so much, also yes economy management is intentionally difficult to add a knowledge cap to reward players that build there infrastructure well, if economy was easier to manage then players would able to spam units without limits

More or less I'm a here and now player, yes I work M-F, 8 to 5 and have limited time to play this game....But if i could build and conquer faster it would make the game more interesting for the little bit of time I have to spare on it... just my opinion...

Dixie wrote:

@'miech

have u tried the 25 player historical map? very scarce resources, and some countries do start in the red.

Its mainly grain what the problem is mid to late game (as on all other big maps), but indeed the other resources are hard to find too, especially if you play with a minor.

I actually won a map with Mongolia or Xingyian, very satisfying.

Yeah, I think infrastructure cost too much oil to build, I mean it's the same as a Battleship and Carrier combined, or more then even heavy tanks!

It doesn't make sense that infrastructure which at the time mostly was railroads would even cost oil at all to build, and there is a shortage of oil late game anyways, so it would be a good idea to at least tone down the oil cost.

almoast every upgrade in coreprovince with ressourse has pay out within 12 to 16 days. Also none core within 48 to 64 days. Also we dont need nerfing oil cost of infrastrukture buildings.

Last Warrior wrote:

almoast every upgrade in coreprovince with ressourse has pay out within 12 to 16 days. Also none core within 48 to 64 days. Also we dont need nerfing oil cost of infrastrukture buildings.

In my current game I have 50 core provinces for each 1 province producing oil, and they all cost 5000 oil to fully upgrade infrastructure on. That's a total investment of 250'000 oil and the pay out is 1500 oil per day, so it will take me 167 days to gain back the investment.

Peachez wrote:

Just some friendly feed back!

Dixie wrote:

@'miech

have u tried the 25 player historical map? very scarce resources, and some countries do start in the red.

Alex_brunius wrote:

Last Warrior wrote:

almoast every upgrade in coreprovince with ressourse has pay out within 12 to 16 days. Also none core within 48 to 64 days. Also we dont need nerfing oil cost of infrastrukture buildings.

Infrastructure takes over 100 days to pay out.

In my current game I have 50 core provinces for each 1 province producing oil, and they all cost 5000 oil to fully upgrade infrastructure on. That's a total investment of 250'000 oil and the pay out is 1500 oil per day, so it will take me 167 days to gain back the investment.

King Draza Mihajlovic wrote:

Infrastructure pays off in 2/4 days lmao, i was able to stop my -1000 per hour and turn it to positive 1000 per hour with just a couple of infrastructures

This means you got +2'000 oil more per hour = +48'000 oil per day.

The best % increase a single infrastructure can get you is +20%, which means that in order for you to get the result you claim you got the base output of the province improved (before any industry or other buildings are added) must have been 48'000/0.4 = 120'000 oil per day.

To my knowledge no such map or province exists in this game, or anything even close to it, unless you found some way to cheat.

I think you should work on being more honest and not lie as blatantly and as much, or you will be called out for it. Especially when using belitteling arguments like laughing at people to try to discredit them.

Alex_brunius wrote:

King Draza Mihajlovic wrote:

Infrastructure pays off in 2/4 days lmao, i was able to stop my -1000 per hour and turn it to positive 1000 per hour with just a couple of infrastructures

So with "couple" I assume that you mean 2 infrastructure since that is the actual meaning of "a couple".

This means you got +2'000 oil more per hour = +48'000 oil per day.

The best % increase a single infrastructure can get you is +20%, which means that in order for you to get the result you claim you got the base output of the province improved (before any industry or other buildings are added) must have been 48'000/0.4 = 120'000 oil per day.

To my knowledge no such map or province exists in this game, or anything even close to it, unless you found some way to cheat.

I think you should work on being more honest and not lie as blatantly and as much, or you will be called out for it. Especially when using belitteling arguments like laughing at people to try to discredit them.

50+? care to show some proof, maybe a screenshot?

Awesomesause175 wrote:

50+? care to show some proof, maybe a screenshot?

Alex_brunius wrote:

In my current game I have 50 core provinces for each 1 province producing oil, and they all cost 5000 oil to fully upgrade infrastructure on.

So lets deal with One oil province.

Base rate of production lets say 3000 tons of oil per day.

A level 1 infrastructure costs you 1000 tons of oil, and takes a day to build. That increases production to +10%

So on day two you make 3,300 tons of oil. If you stop building here you are going to "pay" for the 1,000 tons of oil used to construct the infrastructure in 3.3 days.

If on day two you start a Level 2 infrastructure, that takes 2 days. Another 2,000 tons of oil used for that. So far you have spent 3,000 tons and produced 6,300 tons.

Day three you produce your 3,300 tons of oil.

Day 4 your L2 infrastructure boost oil production to +30%. So 3,900 tons of oil produced.

So at this point on day 4 you have invested 3,000 tons of oil into your infrastructure. Without the infrastructure your oil wells would have produced 12,000 tons of oil. With the infrastructure your wells have made 13,500 tons of oil. Complete payback if you stopped with L2 infrastructure would be in the middle of day 6.

If you continued to make a L3 infrastructure as soon as the L2 was finished it would cost you another 2,000 tons of oil and take 2 days. That would increase production to +50%

Day 5 production is 3,900 tons

Day 6 production is 4,500 tons.

Day 7 production is 4,500 tons. You have achieved payback on the oil production. Without improvement oil production would have held steady at 3,000 per day, making 21,000 tons in total by day 7. The improvements consumed 5,000 tons of oil. With the infrastructure upgrades the oil wells have produced 26,400 tons. So at the end of day 7 you have 400 tons of oil to stick in your pocket, and the following days you have 1,500 tons more each day than you would have had.

So even with the argument that you have to upgrade other resource provinces too, it does pay off. Lets say that you have to build up 5 other provinces at the same time. That will take 25,000 oil. Divide 25,000 by the 1,500 more you are producing each day and it will take just over 16 days to produce. So by day 23 you can start swimming in oil. I know that seems like forever, but it seems to me that day 20 signals the start of heavier action and needing to replace units lost in combat. Might as well have the resources to rebuild the army when needed.

VorlonFCW wrote:

Alex there is no need to build infrastructure on non-productive provinces.

...

So even with the argument that you have to upgrade other resource provinces too, it does pay off. Lets say that you have to build up 5 other provinces at the same time. That will take 25,000 oil. Divide 25,000 by the 1,500 more you are producing each day and it will take just over 16 days to produce. So by day 23 you can start swimming in oil. I know that seems like forever, but it seems to me that day 20 signals the start of heavier action and needing to replace units lost in combat. Might as well have the resources to rebuild the army when needed.

Now your ignoring half of the bonuses infrastructure provides however, which is increasing the speed of land units.

In a game with a better logistical model it could also be important to upgrade to be able to sustain larger forces in certain areas.

Finally from a realism standpoint you would benefit long term from upgrading the infrastructure along key stretches and most of your lands, not only in a few city/resource centers. Hitler is known for having created the autobahn for example, and Russia built the Trans Siberian railroad well before WW2, but how often do you see projects like this get built in the game? I have never seen anyone build a continuous stretch of infrastructure to enable units to move faster over long distances.

This is where the disconnection is IMO. Infrastructure currently only is worth it to upgrade the top oil producing province(s), and maybe some of the other more valuable resources with top production, not important everywhere like it should be.

The Sycamore trees that Napoleon Bonaparte had planted along roads in France in the early 1800's provided good shade for the German army to invade with in 1940. I am not sure the payback time was in his favor there either.

VorlonFCW wrote:

The Sycamore trees that Napoleon Bonaparte had planted along roads in France in the early 1800's provided good shade for the German army to invade with in 1940. I am not sure the payback time was in his favor there either.

VorlonFCW wrote:

The Sycamore trees that Napoleon Bonaparte had planted along roads in France in the early 1800's provided good shade for the German army to invade with in 1940.