Submarine rules need re-writing

6 Jun 2020, 09:39

Been playing the game for a few months now and was a naval wargamer in the past.

IMO the submarine rules are somewhat daft. The 2 key things that are silly are:

1. Their ability to be 'milch cows par excellence' I once transported a huge army in a sub.

2. Attack resolution is all wrong. In some ways a submarine should be like an aircraft. It attacks something and then has to withdraw for a while a bit like a bomber attacking a force. The difference is an aircraft moves quickly a submarine very, very slowly. This should be reflected in the damage, not just 2,3,5% here and there. You either hit or miss or hit and they are duds.

In a recent game I spent something like 4/5 hours attacking one capital ship with one submarine. It was silly. Absolutely bonkers. My sub was high spec and his battleship a type 1 or 2. In real life you would probably have sunk it within 30 minutes, it is hardly if a type UA U-boat was attacking the USS Missouri! More like a type VIIC42 attacking HMS Iron Duke.

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11 Replies

7 Jun 2020, 00:50

There is always a counter move, subs go down real quickly with Naval Bombers

7 Jun 2020, 01:36

gazsom wrote:
There is always a counter move, subs go down real quickly with Naval Bombers

Yes and destroyers and cruisers are also quite effective against subs

7 Jun 2020, 02:52

Subs main use is for scouting beaches, Taking out convoys of unsecured units an at times taking out capital ships.

The greatest weakness to a leader is his himself

7 Jun 2020, 16:40

If you believe that your convoy units are “hidden” inside your submarines, you are incorrect. To the outside observer the sub is not shown, only the convoy ships.

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VorlonFCW
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23 Jul 2020, 03:48

VorlonFCW wrote:
If you believe that your convoy units are “hidden” inside your submarines, you are incorrect. To the outside observer the sub is not shown, only the convoy ships.

There is still a good point about submarine vs capital ship combat. I understand units need to be balanced but subs were, shoot and hide, one shot one kill weapons, not involved in drawn out battles. The idea that a battleship can see or even damage a submarine is exactly what puts them in the role of scouting beaches rather than actual fighting. I'd rather see subs incredibly fragile to destroys, navy bombers but completely invisible to battleships and cruisers when attacking. Why is a sub visible when attacking? From a balancing standpoint it just forces you to build destroyers, whereas right now, I'd rather just send out my battleships with cruisers. They can help bombard, better view range, will still damage subs. Honestly, you should be punished for sending out one or two battleships alone, which right now is perfectly safe from navy attacks, pretty vulnerable to air attacks

23 Jul 2020, 11:11

Subs are visible while attacking because these are WW2 submarines which required frequent surfacing for air and the visible wake of a torpedo indicates where the submarine is.

23 Jul 2020, 11:34

VorlonFCW wrote:
Subs are visible while attacking because these are WW2 submarines which required frequent surfacing for air and the visible wake of a torpedo indicates where the submarine is.

That's a pretty basic idea, still doesn't address that they may need rework. Subs might not have been able to travel long distances underwater but they could still let off torpedoes without surfacing and while wake might have been a factor, it was a far cry from actually telling you where a sub was. As you describe it, it would make more sense for submarines to be visible for say 5 minutes every hour or something similar.

23 Jul 2020, 15:59

BobbyFet wrote:
VorlonFCW wrote:
Subs are visible while attacking because these are WW2 submarines which required frequent surfacing for air and the visible wake of a torpedo indicates where the submarine is.
That's a pretty basic idea, still doesn't address that they may need rework. Subs might not have been able to travel long distances underwater but they could still let off torpedoes without surfacing and while wake might have been a factor, it was a far cry from actually telling you where a sub was. As you describe it, it would make more sense for submarines to be visible for say 5 minutes every hour or something similar.

that would make subd too overpowered. maybe 50 minutes eery hour is more like it

23 Jul 2020, 16:05

As combat takes place once per hour there is zero practical difference between being visible for 5 minutes and being visible the entire duration of combat.

23 Jul 2020, 17:39

in ww2 in the end subs worked in packs anyway in the atlantic ocean.

Until air cover with aircrafts easily pushed the german u2 to be ineffective

The ww2 subs while without air cover provide and advatage at information gathering

And they have a serious advantage at their 1st few minutes of fighting as they can prepare for a serious planned 1st surprise attack

Given of course the other side did not spot them using an airplane

After that they are indeed far less effective

And yes indeed the best ship against submarines are the small one that can have as good or better capability to turn and deploy deep charges on the subs. So destroyers are the realistic choice to beat them. More than cruisers

Today a ship that can use an helicopter will easily defend against a submarine

25 Jul 2020, 23:59

VorlonFCW wrote:
As combat takes place once per hour there is zero practical difference between being visible for 5 minutes and being visible the entire duration of combat.

Ok fine, but that's just an example of how your explanation of subs would look in the game not a suggestion. Maybe make them visible after the first combat duration, an hour or whatever, and keep their stealth for the first attack unless there is a destroyer or naval bomber about. Also up their damage, lower their defence, lower battleship damage vs subs to almost nothing, force people to build destroyers.

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