Submarines, destroyers balance

z00mz00m wrote:

stardragon225 wrote:

or, a much simpler solution which i always lean towards, outnumber your oponet 5 to 1 and it dosent matter what the unit type is

(Burns through recources though)

It's a lot more fun to win when outnumbered 5 to 1.

Am I the only one to not get why subs are a melee unit. What really makes me mad is when my 2,3 stack of subs attacks an unescorted convoy and gets killed just because the convoy stack is “big”. Don’t submarines shoot torpedoes from a distance? I don’t mean one shot should kill a whole stack, but to get locked into a melee?

Irl subs hunt, shoot, scoot, and hunt some more. If your opponent doesn’t want to escort his convoy he should pay the price. He or she could always split and run thereby saving some units. But convoys really should be escorted.

Imo subs should be somewhat like real life hard to detect, easy to kill once found. I’m not sure about ww2 but circa 1980’s anti sub ops involved both sea and air units. Even then subs could and did hide, but once found easy to kill.

Soto wrap up: subs should get a stealth buff, ranged ability, and a few less hit points.

I know this may be controversial but lets hear your thoughts.

Convoys used to be a lot weaker in CoW 1.0 and became more like small frigates in 1.5 with decent A/D values, especially in large numbers. They changed the game to make it more approachable to noobs.

Now, when a land unit enters the ocean, it becomes a fleet of transport ships escorted by frigates. And it can embark+disembark anywhere it wants, no port facilities required. It's completely unrealistic but it results in more chaotic games, and Bytro likes that.

A realistic approach would require complicated strategies that revolve around navies and ports, restricting how and where armies could cross large bodies of water. Only veteran players would be able to figure it out.

Interesting info, appreciated. Did not know the frigates. That would explain the A/D aspect of a large stack. I get that a frigate has d value, but a sub in my opinion should be a ranged unit.

Dont get me going lol.

Did this to death a few months ago. The whole sub thing is bo****** tbh. A sub would and should destroy convoys but a large convoy no. It would run out of torpedoes.

A sub has advantage over most surface ships apart from destroyers and even then it wasn't always a certainty the destroyer would win.

This is solvable but from somewhat 'lively' debate before too many people moaned that it should not replicate real life.

So again I proffer a solution. It would mean reworking submarines a bit like paratroopers with two modes, surface and submerged. To not get too detailed the game would automatically assume that subs were on the surface except when they came into view range. This is relevant to speed so rather like terrain for land forces there would be two normal speeds a surface speed and an underwater speed. Once dived the sub would be very slow meaning as in reality it would need to be ahead of its target to effectively fire at it.

When on the surface anything could fire at the sub including battleships but submerged it could only be naval bombers and destroyers as in real life.

These changes would make subs much more realistic and not be unduly onerous.

Whilst I like them these changes are much more necessary than giving us token toys like flame thrower and ocean going amphib tanks.

Fine, have fun taking your five battleships into a single sub.

Perhaps you could explain?

stardragon225 wrote:

or, a much simpler solution which i always lean towards, outnumber your oponet 5 to 1 and it dosent matter what the unit type is

(Burns through recources though)

That's alright K.