The role of Gold: a serious problem.

NovaTopaz wrote:

Diabolical wrote:

Case in point....me. I've joined a great many matches over the past couple years or so. And I've won some but I've lost a lot more than I've won. Sometimes, there would be a Gold "spammer" or even a multi-account violator who ruined a match for me and the others in that match. But most of the time, if I lost, it was usually due to bad choices, misjudged opponent's strategy, or just rotten luck and/or bad circumstances (i.e., surrounded by opponents who happen to be friends outside the game or I've had "real world" issues outside the game that got in the way of being online enough to be competitive). And quite often it was due to a combination of all three.

The third point is pretty much why I've always end up quitting CoW for extended periods of time... My life(with school and everything else) is busy, and investing time into a game such as this, which usually saps all of your available free time trying to micromanage forces, production, and the like, just doesn't work for me. My attention drifts, I'm gone for a weekend, and before I know it a week has passed and all my stuff has gotten conquered by someone else. I first played before the Carrier was added, and was the most time I ever spent at one time, playing CoW. And also the only time I've won a match, I'm pretty sure. Had a private match with some online friends of mine, and my team won, and I got some gold from it. Got close on another at that time, but because I was gone for a whole weekend(2 days), I lost out and someone else won the match, with me coming in third(or second, I forget). And countless other matches I simply lost because I left them for a few days, and then decided to just leave without playing them out to conclusion. And have also done misplays, and other stuff like that. I don't think I've made it past day 20 on most games I've ever started to play, because of life getting in the way. But I've still had fun with this game, even with those problems.

Still, it would be nice to add this feature to the HC...that you can create a build queue that can be saved and reloaded on any/all of your factories, building whatever that factory is capable of producing as slots become available.

Anyway, the point that both Roko and I've made is that there are ways around this issue that can work for you. Maybe you still won't win as much as you'd like, but you could see an improvement in your overall results.

It's not that I don't think the experience of playing this game has value it's just that I don't want to have a gold war with some idiot. When you've put a lot of time and energy into a game to run up against someone spamming rockets on you it is completely demoralizing. I'm not destitute and am willing to pay to play a fair game, but having a gold war isn't gaming, it's bullshit.

DxC wrote:

I'm not destitute and am willing to pay to play a fair game, but having a gold war isn't gaming, it's bullshit.

Whether you like it or not we've all used gold in our experience of playing call of war

Dramos wrote:

Whether you like it or not we've all used gold in our experience of playing call of war

Of course, that aside, what you said is probably true also because likely everyone has accidentally hit a gold button which didn't have a confirmation. On top of that, probably everyone has tried to see what Gold can do in their match at least once, especially with the default Gold you start with. Even for those, like me, who choose not to use Gold on principle, have probably spent a little Gold from their previous winnings on rare occasions. Heck, I usually save all my winnings and spend it all in one match per year just to get off to a good start. I call it my Gold Blowout Round.

....and in the last match I did that in, I got crushed by three other nations before my Gold investment could have any payoffs. It was a bit coincidental since they were in a coalition and surrounded me and my Gold spending wasn't that obvious even though I announced it in the paper....wait, OK, maybe they DID realize I used Gold even though I wasn't spamming it.

Dang, my up-front honesty actually cost me that match. What a waste of my Gold winnings.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

The sad thing is how this discussion has drifted from a useful subject with a possible productive outcome into a pro-, neutral- and anti-gold discussion.

The point is not whether gold is good or bad. Gold is anyhow necessity for the game to progress in its development (for which income is simply needed). The existance of gold and the use of it, is thus not the point of discussion in itself.

The question is: could it be made possible to play matches without gold, even if we have to pay for that.

Further to the remark earlier about terra-bad ... pls check my earlier post w/ links to map and you will be rofl, bc, indeed, terra-bad can win when it throws a couple million at a regular match and levels every city and airfield with gold sabotage )) But even though that is annoying, that is not a real problem, bc it is wonderful for the game and this happens only when you play against a select few.

The real issue remains: can we get a game option (even if paid for) that eliminates gold use?

If so, players who want to test their skills on a level playing field could finally do so.

(the only possibility now is to participate in the tournament, which is a great initiative)

We understand that the company needs to make money. But we are like the workers unionizing and saying we don't like the working conditions and we want change.

That's a good analogy. Unfortunately, the workers aren't allowed to form a union and, if we strike, they'll just bring in scabs to replace us. We have no real power because we aren't even allowed to speak of negative things without getting banned. So, in essence, we can't even become a collective because if we so much as name an alternative website where we could say what we want, we'd get banned for listing that site name....and that post would get removed anyway.

It's kinda totalitarian. But, it's their right. We are not workers, only guests. Though you'd think they'd treat their paying customers with more respect than that. At least, though, I'm not a paying customer and, if I were, I'd be completely appalled at the censorship. But since I'm not a paying customer, I don't really have a leg to stand on and I'm grateful to be able to participate at all.

Frankly, I really miss the good 'ol days when you had to purchase a copy of a game...then you became a stakeholder and actually had some rights...and everyone was a paying customer that the company wanted to actually earn. But, when most of your patrons are not paying customers, I think the attitude towards them is less than stellar....and who'd blame the employees at Bytro? This modern business model breeds that attitude among all gaming companies.

It used to be "the customer is always right". Now, it's "the customer ain't paying, so what we say is right". Really, the only way to fix that is to convince all the game makers to go back to the old business model. Unfortunately, the play stores at Apple and Google are not set up that way. At least, the people at Bytro actually care about what they are making, so I think they are putting in more effort than some of their competitors. And that's good.

This is why I keep saying "c'est la vie". We can't change things. We can't discuss how or why. And we gotta learn to accept that and just live and let live. That's what I do. That's what we all need to do.

NEYT COMRADES! THE WORKERS REVOLUTION CANNOT END! WE MUST KEEP THE DISCUSSION GOING! WE MUST SEIZE THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION AND MAKE A BETTER COUNTRY! CYKA BLYAT!

To be serious though, the role of gold is a serious issue and should be addressed without all the censorship. We should really find a good idea on how to 'fix' this problem that would suit everyone. There are pros and cons to people using gold and I understand that the company has to make money. But, don't they also get money from ads? So if lots of people start leaving CoW and stop playing other Bytro games in general, wouldn't they lose money and drive the price of gold up since the company has the make money? I really don't know how this works since I am a 10th grade student who hasn't had enough life experience for this, but I mean, how I explained it makes sense to me. I am not 'Anti-Gold' I am just anti-spamming gold, because if one person can train too many infantry units and then uses them to over-run you, well that gets a little annoying after a while. Maybe that's just me?

As you said, you are young and it can be difficult to see things as they really are. Bytro is a business. Yes, a business of and for gamers....but a business, all the same. They have to make a profit. Without that, their shareholders would lose interest and sell off their stakes to lower bidders. Eventually, the company would run out of operating capital (money), they'd be forced to dissolve, liquidating their remaining assets to pay off existing debts and whatever remaining shareholders that haven't yet abandoned the sinking ship and, if they're lucky, find a buyer to take over the remains of the company and rebuild it as a shadow of what it once was. End result, Call of War is gone, Supremacy is gone, newly renamed versions of one or more of the games might replace them but with crappy servers and no support. Eventually, the remaining players who tried to hold on would give up and the company we once knew and loved as Bytro would finally sigh it's dying breath.

Or....they can continue to try to balance the sale of premium points and ads, manage investor dollars, and negotiate lower interest business loans. There is a great deal in business that is very dynamic. But it all comes down to the mighty dollar...or Euro, or whatever currency that applies.

With all that being said, I have multiple ideas on how to generate additional cash flow for Bytro. And I'm sure others do, also. Among my ideas that I've proposed before, is value-added content that doesn't interfere with the game, like cheap sprite animations and skins. Another idea I've asked for is swag....T-shirts, coffee mugs, digital downloads, or whatever is practical...and these types of items further the name recognition with branding.

I'd also like to see a version of the game released where you can actually buy the title. That would be a non-premium-point game that you have a stake in. Though you might be able to be banned from the community, you couldn't be banned from the game itself in that you could "play at home" with a smarter and better AI (like the good 'ol days). Of course, you'd still need to be on your best behavior to play on Bytro's servers for multiplayer fare, but if you could host your own LAN parties and private servers from owned copies of the title, then you could have lowered restrictions for gameplay with your friends. Want a rated-M version of a match where your buddies can talk in the most swarthy battle language at each other over a built-in mic system? The purchased private server option would be a great way to make that happen.

The point of all this is that Bytro needs to make money or else there would be no games. And while premium points are a large source of revenue, Bytro also makes money from High Command and ads. And there are many untapped sources with great potential that the folks at Bytro could access and with each successfully exploited source, they could reduce their dependency on the premium point sales business model and instead organically grow into a dynamic and heterogenous business model where no single revenue source makes or breaks the company or its products. Therefore, by adopting these ideas, Bytro can actually shield itself from shortfalls with a balanced approach to a safe and multi-faceted revenue stream that is much less likely to fail with the market's random ebb and flow.

Diabolical wrote:

The point of all this is that Bytro needs to make money or else there would be no games. And while premium points are a large source of revenue, Bytro also makes money from High Command and ads. And there are many untapped sources with great potential that the folks at Bytro could access and with each successfully exploited source, they could reduce their dependency on the premium point sales business model and instead organically grow into a dynamic and heterogenous business model where no single revenue source makes or breaks the company or its products. Therefore, by adopting these ideas, Bytro can actually shield itself from shortfalls with a balanced approach to a safe and multi-faceted revenue stream that is much less likely to fail with the market's random ebb and flow.

2. Actually a good suggestion.

3. Meh at best.

4. ... That's just weird. And would probably lower their rep, quite a bit. And would also break whatever ToS they'd have for that new game. Besides that, if you actually went that far, you could just use the numerous voice channel applications like TS and Discord... Not have to do it in their games.

Bytro has relatively limited resources at it's disposal to make title games. Most of their games are using the same base infrastructure as Supremecy1914. They don't have the man power(currently, though I don't really know, TBH.) to achieve those sorts of things. The second one you gave is actually good, but everything else is highly unlikely for them to do, for one reason or another. While it would diversify their income, those new sources of income would not be a constant flow of income, like high command, ads, and gold selling are. 3 wouldn't unless they made some kind of DLC, expansion, or put in the same monetary system, and 1 requires spare graphics design resources, which they probably don't have at this time. And 4 obviously breaks their probable ToS on whatever new game, so yeah...

Strange, you're critiquing my suggestions, yet you don't distinguish which is which. I never numbered them....and when I tried to review my own suggestions, your numbering seems to blend a couple of my ideas as different, or vice versa.

As for practical or impractical, every idea I've proposed (and I'm not the only person to do so) has merit to one degree or another. How they take those ideas and whether or not they choose to implement them would depend on lots of factors many of which I probably could only guess at. As for personal favorites, to each his own. I think you agreed with my swag idea....or was it the sprites, etc? Either way, those are just easy-to-produce ideas that wouldn't cost them much and could become minor but consistent revenue sources. Sure, they'd have to weigh the plusses and minuses. But that's something they'd likely have to get a lot more opinions than just a few people like you and me can muster.

Diabolical wrote:

Strange, you're critiquing my suggestions, yet you don't distinguish which is which. I never numbered them....and when I tried to review my own suggestions, your numbering seems to blend a couple of my ideas as different, or vice versa.

As for practical or impractical, every idea I've proposed (and I'm not the only person to do so) has merit to one degree or another. How they take those ideas and whether or not they choose to implement them would depend on lots of factors many of which I probably could only guess at. As for personal favorites, to each his own. I think you agreed with my swag idea....or was it the sprites, etc? Either way, those are just easy-to-produce ideas that wouldn't cost them much and could become minor but consistent revenue sources. Sure, they'd have to weigh the plusses and minuses. But that's something they'd likely have to get a lot more opinions than just a few people like you and me can muster.

1. The sprites(like I said, highly unlikely they'd do that. The last time they even made anything like that was when japanese icons were added for Japan vehicles and such... Just doesn't seem like something they'd do, if you know what I mean.)

2. the swag

3. The independent game

4. ... Pretty sure this one is obvious, given the stuff I covered in it.

Honestly was taking the side of why they wouldn't do the things in 1, 3, and 4. 2 is a reasonable idea, and lots of other people and companies do it, either through collaboration with others, or through their own line of products they make themselves. Usually the former, though.

Number 4, then, was just a spitballing idea where they can avoid the TOS. The point is that there needs to be somewhere that a player can go without the censorship (within reason) and the juvenile content ratings. I'm a "clean cut" guy. I try not to use swear words nor gross or blatant language and topics. But I think it's unrealistic to expect that all users of a software that simulates warfare (albeit, a mostly strategic game), would be content to keep things so sanitary.

Before, I've requested a "grown-up" version of the forums where a user had to certify that they were 18+ before accessing. Of course, this was shot down. I know the TOS pretty well and I have no interest in breaking it. But at the same time, somehow and someway, there should be an official/unofficial way for players to connect and be real -- or foul -- where the TOS has been lightened up. My "4" idea was basically to remove Bytro's servers from the equation by making it possible for people to use a home version for private server functionality. With that, they could set up their own rules and, if Bytro would ever adopt another of my ideas...for modding the game, then that version of the software could be the basis upon which the modding could be done...which would protect the integrity of the base version on Bytro's main servers.

You see, I actually have tons of ideas for this game. And, though other people might spitball a bunch of cool or "neato" ideas, I'm an educated software engineer....a programmer and designer....who's capable of envisioning how such changes or features could actually be implemented given my professional analyses of this gaming environment. And, were I given access to the actual code base, or even just part of it, I could easily adapt said features for potential implementation in future releases of the software.

Pls... stop trying to manage Bytro for Bytro. Start your own company then.

The point should be to have a productive discussion on how to have gold-free-matches.

(probably paid for as a gold-option, so F2P players would have to suffer from golden showers anyway, unless you win enough to get the gold from maps to join gold-free ones).

To date, Bytro have done pretty well (for us!) and all that without resorting to becoming a Chinese-money-pit-game.

Bytro games are of a high quality, well balanced, intelligent, even a bit educational and... give better chances to F2P-players than any other game I have come accross in 2 decades of gaming. I have played almost 2 years (in s1914) without HC or gold and didnt do significantly worse than I do now.

In another (completely different) game I play, the management gives superb advantages for gold. Pay and you will win. Guaranteed.

But yo have to pay a lot as in: really a lot. And that is OK. If you have a lot of money and a small **** and paying for a skilless, virtual win in pixels makes you feel better, heck, go ahead.

But even there F2P players or moderate spenders can get far with putting in more effort and especially more skill. Just forget ending up in the 'real top'. So, the real game is being played in the sub-top and everybody ingnores the 'top of the top', which consists of people spending so much, one can easily by the house, the Porsche ánd that boat.

We do not want Bytro to go that way. Let Bytro make money any way they can, as long as this game remains relatively fair for everyone. And judging from all the continuous game and infra developments, they are doing better every year.

And, in case you meet a spammer, there are several options open for every F2P player:

1. Easy way out: Archive map

2. Put in the effort: Gang up on the spammer and show your skill in diplo and fights by winning together

3. The 'cheap' way: Ally with the spammer ('cheap' meant as 'the other cheap' and not moneywise)

Can we now continue that productive discussion on how to have gold-free-matches in the actual environment provided and without trying to change the management?

_Pontus_ wrote:

And, in case you meet a spammer, there are several options open for every F2P player:

1. Easy way out: Archive map

2. Put in the effort: Gang up on the spammer and show your skill in diplo and fights by winning together

3. The 'cheap' way: Ally with the spammer ('cheap' meant as 'the other cheap' and not moneywise)

And don't get down on those of us who are trying to offer alternative ideas for revenue generation for Bytro. After all, downplaying Gold usage by promoting other revenue streams can also serve to be a solution to the supposed "Gold spamming" issue.

Diabolical wrote:

Unfortunately, option 2 could be considered "wolfpacking" which is prohibited by Bytro.

MontanaBB wrote:

Diabolical wrote:

Unfortunately, option 2 could be considered "wolfpacking" which is prohibited by Bytro.

Wolfpacking, as I understand it, involves inviting your friends to a game in progress to beat the remaining players. If all or most of the players gang up on an, uh, extreme user of one of Bytro's premium products, that is not wolfpacking. Nor would ganging up on any player who is not using gold. That's just the basic "Risk" strategy of taking down everyone's strongest common enemy.

Wolfpacking has been defined, and agreed across language servers, as the joining of maps to help another player in a conflict that is already in progress. This means if you are in over your head, you cannot have a friend jump into the map for the purpose of helping you out.

If the player had already been in the map, before the conflict began, and took your side when the war broke out, that is okay. Same thing for helping friends. If he's in over his head in a war, you cannot join to help him. If you are already in the map and he's getting beat down by another player, sure you can help. Diplomacy is a thing.

Gold has a Advantage in Call of War but its not fair a player has 500 units of Tanks near you border. There should be a Gold limit of 25,000 gold per game so that a Non-Gold user have a slight advantage and wouldn't just lose to a pocket. If i had 1,000,000 gold and versed the whole 5 player coalition with full players that are the best in the game. I would win so its a pay to win game indirectly. I agree there should be gold in the game but there should be a rule against excessive gold users like a limit of 25,000 gold a day.

Moderation - Edited out some gold bashing - K.Rokossovski.